Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

 

From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:22 pm
Subject: Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

Dear Friends,

In reading Isis Mary Sophia I had the most wonderful experience of re membering Her again. God is she so beautiful. Just so very very precious....

Dr. Steiner

" What, therefore, must be developed? It must unfold that, once again, as a matter of course, a "Sophia" becomes present. But we must learn to relate this Sophia to the consciousness soul, bring her down directly to human beings. This is happening during the age of the consciousness soul. And thereby Sophia becomes the being who directly enlightens human beings. After Sophia has entered human beings, she must take their being with her and present it to them outwardly, objectively. Thus, Sophia will be drawn into the human soul and arrive at the point of being so inwardly connected with it that a love poem as beautiful as the one Dante wrote may be writeen about her".

So, I ask, who has had this experience of Sophia that they can write a poem of her virtues and loves? Anyone?

I was also a bit surprised by the explanation of what an Intellectual Soul or Mind Soul refers to: the Soul of higher feeling. (I like caps)

Dr. Steiner says of course we are preparing for the Spirit Self and of course, I believe if we do not seek Sophia we shall miss the boat so to speak till another time.

He goes on to say:

"Sophia will become objective again, but she will take with her what humanity is, and objectively present herself in this form. Thus, she will present herself not only as Sophia, but as Anthroposophia - as the Sophia who, after passing through the human soul, through the very being of the human being, henceforth bears that being within her. And in this form she will confront enlightened human beings as the objective being Sophia who once stood before the Greeks".

Well well well....is all I have to say...not really. And this is the Three in One once again. This is how I experience Magdalene as Sophia: She became Sophia as she was taken within the being Sophia and bears her within. Oh goodeness...oh goodeness...and must be why I experience Sophia in Christ...for it is through Her, through Her, He is truly born.

And who found who? Did I find Dr. Steiner so I could find Magdalene so I could then find Sophia? Who knows these things. But one can look back and trace the path of how one finds oneself standing before this most sublime, precious, precious being of which the greatest poets have written their greatest love songs to, including one Mr. Harvey Bornfield, earlyfire... Ah, yes, when one read the Psalms, Proverbs, Gibran and others who share the indescribable pleasure and treasures of this most wonderful Lady is to melt in love, is to be within the Godhead. I do so love Sophia.

Oh Sophia,

Dottie

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From: Deborah
Date: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Subject: Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

Beautiful, Dottie!

I wonder how Sophia appeared to the Greeks? Perhaps in more than one form.

Athena was a goddess who was supposed to have been born, fully grown and dressed in armor, from the head of Zeus. Athens was, of course, named after her.

I'll see if I can find any goodies in my collection of books about the Greeks. I studied Greek for 3 years at the U of Wisc (I was really, really bad, alas), but I did get a good exposure to Greek literature and mythology in the midst of my struggles.

Deborah

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From: Deborah
Date: Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:21 am
Subject: Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

Dottie,

Here is a description of the last appearance of Sophia at the very end of the classical world. The author is Boethius, who wrote "The Consolation of Philosophy" while imprisoned. For anyone who would like to see the full text:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

where you can also find all the information about the translation, etc.

Deborah

While I was pondering thus in silence, and using my pen to set down so tearful a complaint, there appeared standing over my head a woman's form, whose countenance was full of majesty, whose eyes shone as with fire and in power of insight surpassed the eyes of men, whose colour was full of life, whose strength was yet intact though she was so full of years that none would ever think that she was subject to such age as ours. One could but doubt her varying stature, for at one moment she repressed it to the common measure of a man, at another she seemed to touch with her crown the very heavens: and when she had raised higher her head, it pierced even the sky and baffled the sight of those who would look upon it. Her clothing was wrought of the finest thread by subtle workmanship brought to an indivisible piece. This had she woven with her own hands, as I afterwards did learn by her own shewing. Their beauty was somewhat dimmed by the dulness of long neglect, as is seen in the smoke-grimed masks of our ancestors. On the border below was inwoven the symbol II, on that above was to be read a 1 And between the two letters there could be marked degrees, by which, as by the rungs of a ladder, ascent might be made from the lower principle to the higher. Yet the hands of rough men had torn this garment and snatched such morsels as they could therefrom. In her right hand she carried books, in her left was a sceptre brandished.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:03 pm
Subject: Desperately Seeking Sophia

Deborah wrote:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

Bradford adds to the research:

This Holy Ghost, is a curious aspect of Sophiology. Novalis as Artist and Scientist comes through this Sophiology on the death of Sophie von Kuhn. Steiner understands that Beatrice and Dante's profound inspiration that has to do with the Ninefold structure of the cosmos and human sheaths also models out an intimate Sophia structure. Jacob Boehme also takes the researcher into the mystical inner experiences of Sophia.

But I will illustrate here an additional four avenues of research towards Sophiology. The Romantics, by Steiner's Love story of Dante allows us to say that the Romantics were inspired by a Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, language of higher Angelic Communication and this holds strongly for Rainer Marie Rilke in his poetic work. So altogether in this related research that I will list below we have approximately Nine References to Sophiology.

The Holy Ghost and the Arthur and Grail stories always reveal a sort of Sophiology referencing as a Whitsun or Pentecost mystery. Grunewald the Painter, who paints Mary in a Mountain landscape at the birth of Jesus and in a panel behind or side by side, he paints the inner picture of Mary. Here we come vision to vision, face to face with the Crowned Starry Sophia amongst the Planetary spirits, that Grunewald includes in his painting. This makes nearly 11 references for us to track.

Finally and dangerously, Reproductive Technology holds both star secrets, dragon errors and bridges between flower and insect, animal and human- and human and superhuman genome issues, Nature in all her motherly mystery links to the profound Starry wisdom of Sophia as well.

One further thread of thinking connects us to what Ahriman opposed so strongly. That the Holy Ghost and Karma of the Grail families had arisen in relation to planned parenthood, based on the Holy Ghost that held Christ together, as a living Imagination and these apostle human seeds were transplanted further along histories course into the Grail families. Here the Wagner/Merlin intuition was attacked ferociously by Nazi Selective Breeding techniques, that were not based on Starry or Etheric or Ego tracking realities but on human Racism. Nazi did not want the information and the connections we have put together here to become part of Steiner's Mission.

Steiner's Mission was to prepare the daughters of Sophia and Anthro-Sophia and track I AM's to midwife and assist Sophiology and the Science of the Ninefold human being. So grab a shovel for here is a real download.

ONE;

"Luke next proceeds with his narrative in the following terms: "And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you: it is I; be not afraid.23 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

And He said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

And when He had thus spoken, He showed them His hands and His feet."24 It is to this act, by which the Lord showed Himself after His resurrection, that John is also understood to refer when he discourses as follows: "Then, when it was late on the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus, and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

And when He had so said, He showed unto them His hands and His side."25 Thus, too, we may connect with these words of John certain matters which Luke reports, but which John Himself omits. For Luke continues in these terms: "And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And when He had eaten before them, He took what remained,26 and gave it unto them."27

Again, a passage which Luke omits, but which John presents, may next be connected with these words. It is to the following effect: "Then were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."28 Once more, we may attach to the above section another which John has left out, but which Luke inserts. It runs thus: "And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me."

TWO;

"Then fixing her eyes wholly on me, she said, ' Are you the man who was nourished upon the milk of my learning, brought up with my food until you had won you r way to the power of a manly soul? Surely I had given you such weapons as would keep you safe, and your strength unconquered; if you had not thrown them away. Do you know me? Why do you keep silence? Are you dumb from shame or from dull amazement? I would it were from shame, but I see that amazement has overwhelmed you.'

When she saw that I was not only silent, but utterly tongue-tied and dumb, she put her hand gently upon my breast, and said,' There is no danger: he is suffering from drowsiness, that disease which attacks so many minds which have been deceived. He has forgotten himself for a moment and will quickly remember, as soon as he recognises me. That he may do so, l et me brush away from his eyes the darkening cloud of thoughts of matters perishable.' So saying, she gathered her robe into a fold and dried my swimming eyes.

Then was dark night dispelled, the shadows fled away, and my eyes received returning power as before.'Twas just as when the heavenly bodies are enveloped by the west wind's rush, and the sky stands thick with watery clouds; the sun is hidden and the stars are not yet come into the sky, and night descending from above o'erspreads the earth: but if the north wind smites this scene, launched forth from the Thracian cave, it unlocks the imprisoned daylight; the sun shines forth, and thus sparkling Phoebus smites with his rays our wondering eyes.

In such a manner were the clouds of grief scattered. Then I drew breath again and engaged my mind in taking knowledge of my physician's countenance. So when I turned my eyes towards her and fixed my gaze upon her, I recognised my nurse, Philosophy, in whose chambers I had spent my life from earliest manhood. And I asked her,' Wherefore have you, mistress of all virtues, come down from heaven above to visit my lonely place of banishment? Is it that you, as well as I, may be harrie d, the victim of false charges? ' 'Should I,' said she,' desert you, my nursling?"

THREE;

http://www.sophiafoundation.org/Who_is_Sophia.html

"Sophiology is closely connected to the life work of Vladimir Soloviev (1853 - 1900), one of Russia's greatest philosophers. Soloviev had three mystical experiences of Sophia, and these determined the central impulse and motivation for his entire life's work. Inspired by Soloviev, Pavel Florensky (1882 - 1937) and Sergei Bulgakov (1871 - 1944), both of whom were priests in the Russian Orthodox Church, developed Sophiology further in a systematic sense, drawing primarily upon the biblical Books of Wisdom and the Orthodox tradition of devotion to Sophia. It was their concern to elaborate a theology of Sophia that, while signifying an extension of Orthodox theology, would not conflict with it.

In the meantime, in the West, interest in Sophia is growing. This accords with Soloviev's prophetic vision of the approaching descent of Sophia. He expresses this vision in one of his poems:

Let it be known: today the Eternal Feminine In an incorruptible body is descending to Earth. In the unfading light of the new Goddess Heaven has become one with the depths.

Here we have returned full circle to Goethe's words concerning the Eternal Feminine."

FOUR;

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37a7a68640c3.htm

"One day, I remember well, the chilly winds whistled through the leafless trees, though the sky was cloudless and the sun shone brightly, he remained in his quarters nearly all the afternoon alone. When he came out, I noticed that his face was a shade paler than usual, and there seemed to be something on his mind of more than ordinary importance. Returning just after dusk, he dispatched an orderly to the quarters of the officer I mention who was presently in attendance. After a preliminary conversation of about half an hour, Washington, gazing upon his companion with that strange look of dignity which he alone could command said to the latter: "I do not know whether it is owing to anxiety of my mind, or what, but this afternoon, as I was sitting at this table engaged in preparing a dispatch, something seemed to disturb me. Looking up, I beheld standing opposite me a singularly beautiful female. So astonished was I, for I had given strict orders not to be disturbed, that it was some moments before I found language to inquire the cause of her presence. A second, a third, and even a fourth time did I repeat my question, but received no answer from my mysterious visitor except a slight raising of her eyes. "Presently I heard a voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn,' while at the same time my visitor extended her arm eastwardly. I now beheld a heavy white vapor at some distance rising fold upon fold. This gradually dissipated, and I looked upon a strange scene. Before me lay spread out in one vast plain all the countries of the world -- Europe, Asia, Africa, and America. I saw rolling and tossing, between Europe and America, the billows of the Atlantic, and between Asia and America lay the Pacific. "'Son of the Republic,' said the same mysterious voice as before,"

FIVE;

'Come in,' said the voice of the princess.

Curdie opened the door - but, to his astonishment, saw no room there. Could he have opened a wrong door? There was the great sky, and the stars, and beneath he could see nothing only darkness! But what was that in the sky, straight in front of him? A great wheel of fire, turning and turning, and flashing out blue lights!

'Come in, Curdie,' said the voice again.

'I would at once, ma'am,' said Curdie, 'if I were sure I was standing at your door.'

'Why should you doubt it, Curdie?'

'Because I see neither walls nor floor, only darkness and the great sky.'
'That is all right, Curdie. Come in.'

Curdie stepped forward at once. He was indeed, for the very crumb of a moment, tempted to feel before him with his foot; but he saw that would be to distrust the princess, and a greater rudeness he could not offer her. So he stepped straight in - I will not say without a little tremble at the thought of finding no floor beneath his foot. But that which had need of the floor found it, and his foot was satisfied.

"No sooner was he in than he saw that the great revolving wheel in the sky was the princess's spinning wheel, near the other end of the room, turning very fast. He could see no sky or stars any more, but the wheel was flashing out blue - oh, such lovely sky-blue light! - and behind it of course sat the princess, but whether an old woman as thin as a skeleton leaf, or a glorious lady as young as perfection, he could not tell for the turning and flashing of the wheel.

'Listen to the wheel,' said the voice which had already grown dear to Curdie: its very tone was precious like a jewel, not as a jewel, for no jewel could compare with it in preciousness.

And Curdie listened and listened.

Now you are listening, with Curdie, to "The Music of the Spheres". Now we are listening to what Kepler saw in the Geometry of the planets, in the music of matter. But how would you even know to go to Kepler and to Tycho De Brahe in history and find out that here again we find Sophia...there is also a Great German Mystic who speaks directly of Sophia...Jakob Boehme (Böhme, Behm)(1575-1624). If you really want to know about Sophia you will do just as Danny has said. You will look up the Egyptian Goddess NUT. Her body is the entire arch of the Heavens and we feed off her lunar breasts, which connects directly to all that you should scramble to understand about Diana of Ephesus.

In Tycho, like Novalis, we are dealing with Tycho as the strange woman named Herzaloyde, mother of Parsifal. If you cannot be dumb founded and warmly shocked by reality how will you ever uncover the Curdie forces of discernment that George MacDonald brought in for us? What about Kepler? We know he was incarnated in Egypt and obviously understood a great deal about NUT..he carried over his Egyptian Initation into his Kepler incarnation. What are we scared of, knowing the trails and back tracks that will get us on the right road, means we have to learn to put current education in its deserved place. It means we have to learn how to self correct and listen with intense interest to thousands and thousands of seemingly unimportant events.

'What is it saying?' asked the voice.

'It is singing,' answered Curdie.

'What is it singing?'

Curdie tried to make out, but thought he could not; for no sooner had he got hold of something than it vanished again.

Yet he listened, and listened, entranced with delight.

'Thank you, Curdie, said the voice.

'Ma'am,' said Curdie, 'I did try hard for a while, but I could not make anything of it.'

'Oh yes, you did, and you have been telling it to me! Shall I tell you again what I told my wheel, and my wheel told you, and you have just told me without knowing it?'

'Please, ma'am.'

Then the lady began to sing, and her wheel spun an accompaniment to her song, and the music of the wheel was like the music of an Aeolian harp blown upon by the wind that bloweth where it listeth. Oh, the sweet sounds of that spinning wheel! Now they were gold, now silver, now grass, now palm trees, now ancient cities, now rubies, now mountain brooks, now peacock's feathers, now clouds, now snowdrops, and now mid-sea islands. But for the voice that sang through it all, about that I have no words to tell. It would make you weep if I were able to tell you what that was like, it was so beautiful and true and lovely. But this is something like the words of its song:

The stars are spinning their threads, And the clouds are the dust that flies, And the suns are weaving them up For the time when the sleepers shall rise.

The ocean in music rolls, And gems are turning to eyes, And the trees are gathering souls For the day when the sleepers shall rise.

The weepers are learning to smile, And laughter to glean the sighs; Burn and bury the care and guile, For the day when the sleepers shall rise.

oh, the dews and the moths and the daisy red, The larks and the glimmers and flows! The lilies and sparrows and daily bread, And the something that nobody knows!

The princess stopped, her wheel stopped, and she laughed. And her laugh was sweeter than song and wheel; sweeter than running brook and silver bell; sweeter than joy itself, for the heart of the laugh was love.

'Come now, Curdie, to this side of my wheel, and you will find me,' she said; and her laugh seemed sounding on still in the words, as if they were made of breath that had laughed.

Curdie obeyed, and passed the wheel, and there she stood to receive him! - fairer than when he saw her last, a little younger still, and dressed not in green and emeralds, but in pale blue, with a coronet of silver set with pearls, and slippers covered with opals that gleamed every colour of the rainbow. It was some time before Curdie could take his eyes from the marvel of her loveliness."

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Msg #
From: "holderlin66" <holderlin66@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:51 am
Subject: Seeking Sophia/Soloviev

holderlin wrote:

This Holy Ghost, is a curious aspect of Sophiology.

Steiner's Mission was to prepare the daughters of Sophia and Anthro- Sophia and track I AM's to midwife and assist Sophiology and the Science of the Ninefold human being.

http://print.google.com/print/doc?isbn=0271022183

"The Moscow branch was called the Religious Philosophical Vladimir Soloviev Society, after Russia's greatest philosopher. Soloviev (1853-1900) preached an activist Christianity that would transfigure the world and establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, a realm of pure joy and love. He considered art a form of inspired prophecy and had a special regard for lyric poetry, which he associated with Sophia (Divine Wisdom) and romantic notions of "the eternal feminine" (Goethe's phrase)."

Bradford comments;

There is a threefold structure to Poetry and three different soul forces are used for the slow churning of chakra and focus when it comes to poetry and Speech or Word Research. Lips, placed as they are where Karma meets the road, where love contacts the world, is also the position of the stream of sounds that focus themselves on Lyric poetry. Steiner and ancient India had things which we hardly understand today, except if I am standing before you as a speech teacher or you have actual Eurythmy work before you, a thing called COSMIC LYRIC.

COSMIC LYRIC is heart-Warmth tonal speech that rings almost like song. If you imagine Koran or Yiddish singing of versus out over the Mosques at night, but now raising tone and tonal sound focus into deep cosmic imagery...You get true sense of Cosmic Lyric. However Keats "Ode to a Nightingale" is so strikingly lyrical and Keats is such a lyricist, we must say that Keats was dominated by the eternal feminine. Steiner and any human understanding of Esoteric Speech function outlines, Lyric-Dramatic and Epic. Discerning these and understanding not only the Individual Sounds and Letters, but their relation to how the human being is constructed and the soul forces engaged is my specific task and expertise.

Soloviev:

"He believed that the poet's task was to bring Sophia down from heaven by love and find forms to suit her essence. He considered Beauty to be the carrier of the Idea, not in the Hegelian sense, the reflection of an eternal Idea upon fleeting phenomena, but that which incarnates a spiritual or divine principle in matter. He saw nature as the body of Sophia and the flesh as something that should not be denied but transfigured. In The Meaning of Love (1892-94), Soloviev separated procreation and sexual pleasure and sanctioned sexual pleasure as a means of overcoming egoism. His ideal human being was androgynous, a tenet that can be interpreted either as recommending bisexuality or as calling for the transcendence of sexual relations in a transfigured world."

Bradford comments;

Steiner had to tackle Hegel as well even if we, slumbering Anthros hardly get it at all. Hegel was Holderlin's ole buddy but one had to get beyond the output of Hegel. Hegel blanketed the world withe a kind of Liberal Free Mason cosmology. Steiner in his quarter of the world saw Hegel and got beyond him and Soloviev in his quarter of the world thought the same as Steiner, one had to find a way to see the world beyond Hegel.

What we have in the history of insight and philosophy are understanding real bursting issues that had changed the focus of culture. We today have no understanding of the upstream source of real issues and frankly, few of us take real interest in researching what those upstream, Uptstream from our current Time, meaning floating your little cognitive boat, upstream to find out where the world was cracking and breaking and where the general ideas sourced themselves from. Finding the sources of the Nile or finding the sources of Time Stream Ideas is part of navigation and I AM cognition and Steiner was an expert at it. Actual navigation of streams of thought. This is exactly what German Soul Cognition was all about and why Steiner chose the German Soul to incarnate in.

On this list we have discussed vividly the issue of Gay marriages, and whole social surging of ideas that demand that we look upon Love, Sex and identity in new ways. In fact we had to enter into identity as an I AM reality, that transcended mere sexual constructs.

Our Age is unconsciously stumbling around in these areas but have no idea how Sophia, Reincarnation, Steiner and Soloviev are pointing to the Cosmic, the STAR BEing of what Danny and I, and very few others even understand, the Egyptian NUT. Indeed Sexual Revoltuion, lesbian, gay, porn and the reality of brotherly and sisterly Love must break down thousands of dogmatic doors.

I find it a speciif failure to understand Sophia without NUT- the journey of the soul after death and even MAAT herself as intimate to grasping how Sophiac and the new Objective Daughter construct of all healthy souls, is defined as ANTHROSOPHIC. That means constructing an objective Soul garment built on Spiritual Science that Sophia will recognize when we cross the threshold and enter the stars. Here again, Anthros blunder around as blind as bats unable to navigate how Sophia is different than Michael.

"Soloviev's most fundamental concept was "Godmanhood" (Bogochelovechestvo), the incarnation of the divine idea in man (in other words deification) and the salvation and transfiguration of all humankind, not just righteous individuals. The antipode of "Godmanhood" was demonic "Mangodhood." (Dostoevsky also contrasted Godman and man-god.) Although Soloviev disapproved of Nietzsche, he considered the Superman a religiously significant idea, because it expressed a yearning to be more than human. "Godmanhood" was related to Soloviev's concept of "total unity" (vseedinstvo), the unity of being central to Orthodox ontology. He rejected abstract Western philosophy, represented in his early works by Hegel, in favor of an integral worldview, an all-encompassing synthesis of philosophy, religion, science, and art. In the 1880s, Soloviev advocated "free theocracy," a variant of the Slavophile ideal of sobornost', to be instituted by the tsar and the pope, for one of his goals was the reunion of the Christian churches.

"In the 1890s, dismayed by the failure of his theocratic project, Soloviev espoused a kind of liberalism. (The symbolists ignored this aspect of his views.) Throughout, he advocated an activist Christianity, one that would really change the world.

"In the last year of his life (1900), Soloviev predicted the imminent advent of the Antichrist in a tale that portrayed him as a composite figure with Nietzschean traits. Indeed, says the narrator, "many called him a Superman." Dazzlingly beautiful, the Antichrist uses science, magic, and technology to control nature (an allusion to Fedorov) and ends the age-old scourges of hunger and war. But he abolishes the distinction between good and evil, loves only himself, and presumes to replace Christ, for his real motivation is power.

"After the political and social problems have been solved, the religious question comes to the fore. The Jews revolt when they learn that he is not the Messiah after all (note the importance of human agency); evil is vanquished; and the Millennium begins. Soloviev's apocalypticism and his prophesy of pan-Mongolism (the rule of the "yellow" races over the "white") influenced symbolist political thought during the Russo-Japanese War, merging with other apocalyptic visions, especially Merezhkovsky's Third Testament, Wagner's Götterdämmerung, and Nietzsche's "great noontide": "One day they shall proclaim with tongues of flame: It is coming, it is near, the great noontide!" (Z, 192).

"Merezhkovsky's apocalypticism posited grand historical schemes along the lines of a Hegelian dialectic, which he sometimes he conflated with Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence, misunderstood as historical cycles. Merezhkovsky's Christianity centered on Jesus; Ivanov's was part of an amorphous "new religious synthesis." Merezhkovsky's writing style was clear and simple, as befit his proselytizing orientation; Ivanov's was turgid, esoteric, and replete with neologisms that had Greek or Latin roots."

Bradford;

Sorting out Michael and Sophia and finding the threads through history and awakening ourselves to our current time is being able to grasp fragments of Sophiology, Philosophy and navigate world ideas with the new tools of Michael I AM navigation.

As I mentioned, I sort of just wandered into the realm of Russia and the Russian soul once again. I find myself in the midst of the heroic and passionate current savior of the Anthro Society, Sergei Perkofiev and of course Gordienko and the mystery of Mereshkovsky's Russia. If you enter into the great passion of the ideologies, we undestand the passion and warmth Perkofiev has brought from his will and Russian soul to the realm of adoring and sometimes thoughtless fans in Anthro land. He has brought a Russian quality of Soul to sit in roost over the Goetheanum.

Take Andrea, and the Italian quality of soul; or America and Joel or Dottie's or Paulina or Deborah's quality of soul. Any and all of these should be fairly understood at the heart of Spiritual Science. Yet if we make an Idol, a new Messiah out of Prokofiev to suit our Anthro weakness to be led instead of to share, we fail to understand the quality of this young-at least our friend S.P.'s contribution. Take Ben Aarron and his quality, all of them radiate from the Michael School and weaving in all this, are wonderful works and efforts. But we need not make Idols out of anyone, just call forth thinking I AM's who participate in the world for the hopes that Michael is offering.

But in any event, grasping the Star Nature of Sophia, the Objective Thinking, Feeling, Willing model of the Soul structure, the AnthroSophic daughter soul and understanding the nature of LYRIC, Dramatic and Epic poetry, reveals actual spiritual paths. Real forces of soul and real insights into the Science and pseudo science that lead to or defy Sophia. We can remain true Watchers on the Horizon, ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER as Dylan and Hendrix shouted to us.

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:48 pm
Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

Dear Deborah,

Very interesting reading this. I immediately felt, this can't be right and then I felt sad knowing it was actually very accurate. See, Sophia was 'dying' in a sense within the people. And She would be the mirror image for how they hold her. And so at this time she was getting ready to leave. Dr. Steiner speaks of this moment as well.

And, then, here we are today. She is the most beautiful being in the whole world. Is it just because I can see her and I love her? No, it's because people are starting to seek her once more. Seeds have been sown and slowly, well actually rather quickly it seems to me, she is reappearing and she is young but just as she is described in the passage below. She reaches up past the sky line and takes up the whole borders. She bows before the grass and humbles herself before all with a shy smile and a hearty laugh. The Wind loves her as well as do all living creatures seen and unseen. She is the Queen. And She is most willing and hoping that we will but just seek her with our hearts as She passes us by looking for just one who will dare to call Her name. As if She tills the moonlit nights for just a sign, just a flicker of rememberence. She is so.

Thank you for the link and your words of kindness,

Love,d

 

Deborah:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

While I was pondering thus in silence, and using my pen to set down so tearful a complaint, there appeared standing over my head a woman's form, whose countenance was full of majesty, whose eyes shone as with fire and in power of insight surpassed the eyes of men, whose colour was full of life, whose strength was yet intact though she was so full of years that none would ever think that she was subject to such age as ours. One could but doubt her varying stature, for at one moment she repressed it to the common measure of a man, at another she seemed to touch with her crown the very heavens: and when she had raised higher her head, it pierced even the sky and baffled the sight of those who would look upon it. Her clothing was wrought of the finest thread by subtle workmanship brought to an indivisible piece. This had she woven with her own hands, as I afterwards did learn by her own shewing. Their beauty was somewhat dimmed by the dulness of long neglect, as is seen in the smoke-grimed masks of our ancestors. On the border below was inwoven the symbol II, on that above was to be read a 1 And between the two letters there could be marked degrees, by which, as by the rungs of a ladder, ascent might be made from the lower principle to the higher. Yet the hands of rough men had torn this garment and snatched such morsels as they could therefrom. In her right hand she carried books, in her left was a sceptre brandished.

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From: Deborah
Date: Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:08 am
Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

Dottie said:

See, Sophia was 'dying' in a sense within the people. And She would be the mirror image for how they hold her. And so at this time she was getting ready to leave. Dr. Steiner speaks of this moment as well.

Dear Dottie,

But it isn't all sadness. Sophia had to go away and the classical world had to die and be reborn. Michael could not have brought the Cosmic Intelligence down to earth without there being a sort of open space...and I feel that open space came about through Sophia's generous stepping back. Ancient philosophy (literally love of wisdom or love of Sophia) had come to the end of its creativity. The schools of Athens had closed and the teachers had gone east to Persia where they settled in Jundishapur.

I'll go looking for the Steiner quote on the Cosmic Intelligence coming down to earth.

It was very kind of Philosophy to come and visit poor Boethius in prison. What a wonderful gift of wisdom was given there, to him and to the scholars of the dark ages. A sort of cocoon was spun and within rested a seed of wisdom, waiting to be reborn as something new and extraordinary during the Middle Ages.

Cheers,
Deborah

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From: Deborah
Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:53 am
Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

I've been reading "The Archangel Michael: His Mission and Ours: Selected Lectures and Writings by Rudolf Steiner." Published by Anthroposophic Press in 1994. I received this book as a gift many years ago and never got around to reading it until Dottie inspired me with her questions about Sophia.

Towards the end of the book are some excerpts from the Michael Mystery, the Michael Letters. The first is entitled: "At the Dawn of the Age of Michael" August 17, 1924.

Quote:

Human beings enjoyed a different relationship to their thoughts prior to the ninth century after the Mystery of Golgotha than they did later on. They did not feel the thoughts living in their souls were produced by them, but they regarded them rather as gifts given them by the spiritual world. Even such thoughts as they had about what they perceived with their senses seemed to them revelations of the Divine conveyed by objects in the sense world.

Deborah:

My experience of studying Ancient Greek reinforces this statement. Greeks may not always have been conscious of thoughts as coming from the Divine, but they did not feel the thoughts as being their individual creations. It was more a feeling of thoughts being "out there" and "found."

Quote:

Anyone who can perceive the Spirit understands this feeling.

Those to who a spiritual reality is manifested never feel that the spiritual percept is given and that they then form the concept to grasp it. Rather they actually "see" the thought contained in the percept. The thought is just as objectively present as is the percept itself.

During the ninth century -- this is, of course, only an approximate time, to be understood as a median, for the transition took place gradually -- individual personal intelligence began to illumine the souls of human beings. People got the feeling that "they formed" their thoughts. This thought-forming activity became the predominant feature of soul life, so that thinkers conceived of the human soul as expressing itself fundamentally in the application of intelligence.

Deborah:

Earlier I brought forward Boethius and his book "Consolation of Philosophy" as the last appearance of Sophia in the "classical" world.

Here is one of the earliest thinkers in the medieval world to take up what Boethius had brought (which became a bridge into medieval thinking).

Quote:

The first man in Western Europe, so far as we know, to lecture systematically on the whole range of Boethius's logical treatises, was the scholar Gerbert, who settled in Rheims in 972 in order to study logic under a certain Gerannus, archdeacon of the city. The pupil soon eclipsed the master, and during the next twenty-five years, in the midst of ever increasing political activity, he made a European reputation as a teacher. We are fortunate in having an account of Gerbert's teaching in the history of his time written by his pupil Richer. It takes us into a scholar's workshop at a critical moment in the formation of Europe, and, short though it is, there is no comparable description of a master's teaching for many years to come. (p.175, "The Making of the Middle Ages." by R.W. Southern, 1953.)

Deborah:

The author goes on to discuss exactly which texts Gerbert expounded and how he revived and expanded the study of logic.

So, we have Philosophia saying good-bye to Boethius (between 524 and 526) and then the revival of logic after 972. Steiner, above, puts the beginning of the new relationship to thought in the 800s, the time of the Carolingian Renaissance. Within 200 years thinkers were taking up the ideas of the past and working with them in new ways.

Cheers,
Deborah

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From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:03 pm
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Andreev

"What Andreev proclaims as the "decisive thesis" for the Rose of the World, he also condemns as a "blasphemous cult" in the kingdom of the Antichrist, but it is the very same feminine principle, polarized into "virgin" and "whore."

"Andreev's attempt to reconcile these two aspects in the image of the Eternal Mother, who is both Sophia and Materiia, proved to be a spiritually dangerous enterprise, since the opposition between these two aspects should not be completely erased. As soon as the desired synthesis of all-comprehensive femininity is achieved in the project of the Rose of the World, it becomes subject to a new doubling, to the materialization of a demonic and purely sensual femininity in the kingdom of the Antichrist, and it is this theoretical irony that ultimately undermines Andreev's theocratic utopia.

"Thus the mystical element of Andreev's doctrine, his veneration of the feminine aspect of Divinity, comes into a very complicated and controversial relationship with the eschatological element of his doctrine, an apprehension of the "ritual debauchery" at the very essence of the demonic "Anti-trinity." Andreev himself never succeeded in overcoming this contradiction but, of all Russian mystics, he most expressively testifies to its hidden ironies.

http://www.emory.edu/INTELNET/fi.andreev.html

"The Rose of the World is a multifaceted book exploring the structure of all existing worlds, both visible and invisible, ascending to Paradise and descending to Hell. The narration contains a great many terms and expressions which cannot be found in any dictionary -- they are defined in a special glossary following at the end of the book. These words, says Andreev, were introduced by supernatural voices into his consciousness and were rationalized by him as signifying the principal elements of the transphysical universe. For example, Andreev defined Bramfatura as the system of different material levels comprising celestial bodies; Shadanakar is the name of our planet's bramfatura consisting of a great number of planes (more than 240) of different kinds of matter, with various dimensions of time and space.

"Before materialism became an official doctrine, another femininely oriented philosophy had been developing in Russia, the so-called "sophiology." At the end of the 19th, and during the first half of the 20th, century this concept was elaborated by Vladimir Soloviev, Pavel Florensky, Sergei Bulgakov, and other thinkers who considered the Russian soul to be especially attuned to Sophia, Divine Wisdom. Both materiia and Sophia, they argued, characterized the feminine element in the universe, but there is a major difference between them: materiia is nature which gives birth to living beings; Sophia is Divine Wisdom which generates nature itself. In the Old Testament, Sophia (Hokhma in Hebrew) is portrayed as follows:

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

[. . .] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him. . . ("Proverbs," 8:22-23, 30-31).

Wisdom I loved; I sought her out when I was young and longed to win her for my bride, and I fell in love with her beauty. She adds lustre to her noble birth, because it is given her to live with God, and the Lord of all things has accepted her ("The Wisdom of Solomon," 8: 2-3).

Sophia, or Divine Wisdom, is a mysterious entity that, under different names, is worshipped in several religious traditions: pagan, Judaic, Gnostic, and Christian. In Greek polytheism, Sophia is represented by chaste goddess of wisdom Athena, the daughter of Zeus born directly from his head. In Christianity, Sophia converges with the image of the Virgin Mary. The essential quality of Sophia- wisdom is her chastity. In Russian, as in Greek, the term "chastity" includes the root, "wisdom": tselomudrie literally means "whole wisdom." The connection between wisdom and chastity is found in many spiritual traditions.

A contemporary Russian scholar, Sergei Averintsev, emphasizes that "according to the stable mythological pattern, widespread in various Eurasian cultures, wisdom belongs to a virgin or, in fact, wisdom is a virgin."

Materialism and sophiology in Russian thought share the same mythological origin: both glorify the primary feminine elements of existence, namely nature and wisdom. Sophia represents the virginal, and materiia the maternal, aspects of this femininity. Both are rooted in the deepest mythological archetypes of Russian thought as the two pillars of feminine mysticism.

The Soviet intensification of materialism deepened the traditional symbolic rift between the two conceptions of femininity. Materialism, as propagated by Marxism-Leninism, is not merely the glorification of the forces of materiia; in alliance with atheism, it strives to tear materiia away from its divine origins, from Sophia, and to submit it to the mastery of man.

Originally, the image of Sophia was ambiguous, as can be seen from Thunder, Whole Mind, one of the writings found at Nag Hammadi in 1945 and probably written during the first century B.C. Here Sophia manifests herself as both saint and whore. Gradually, however, these aspects of the Feminine Divinity became increasingly distinct.

As I have indicated, Sophia was identified with the Holy Wisdom of God and the immaculate Mother of God, the Eternal Virgin (Prisnodeva). Thus the sophiological preference for chastity begins to betray an ascetic bias, a one-sidedness for which materialism strives to compensate. Virginity is in conflict with the fertile, prolific forces of nature. Thus the other aspect of primordial female Divinity -- fertility and sensuality (called the fallen Sophia by the gnostics) -- is developed in materialist teachings, where it acts as a counterbalance to virginity, eventually beginning to overcompensate, moving into the excesses of dissipation.

Many Russian thinkers have lamented the internal division of the Russian national character, which strains in two opposite directions, ascetic/"angelic" and sensual/"animalistic", but seldom succeeds in integrating spiritual and material impulses in a human middle-ground. The same tragic split occurs within the feminine elements of Russian culture; hence, an important task of contemporary Russian thought is to resolve the historical antagonism between the two philosophical tendencies of sophiology and materialism.

Throughout his creative years, Daniil Andreev suffered under the pressure of official Soviet ideology's "stubborn iron materialism," but his inner resistance to this mysticism of materiia did not push him to the other extreme of bodiless spiritualism. Nature was the center of his whole system, and he singled out a special category of "elementals" (stikhiali ), spiritual entities which have an elevating effect on the human soul and are embodied in such natural elements (stikhii ) as rivers, trees, wind, and snow.

The double materialistic and sophiological context of Andreev's view on femininity becomes clear from his short remark indicating the whole spectrum of traditional Russian worship of the earth as mother and as lover. "Earth is not only our mother; in some deeper sense which still cannot be explicated, she is our lover. One should remember the precept of Dostoevsky, who urged us to kiss the earth constantly during every step." (Rose of the World, book 12, chapter 3, page 259).

Andreev attempts to elevate this "pagan" worship of the earth to the highest level of Christian theology. The chapter "Femininity" in Rose of the World treats this question in terms of the Holy Trinity. Andreev considered himself Christian, but he dared to dispute the doctrine of the Trinity:

"I am approaching the decisive thesis. . . The canonical gospels of Matthew and Luke distinctly and clearly assume the conception of the infant Jesus by the Virgin Mary from the Holy Spirit. Thus one can conclude that it was the Holy Spirit and not God the Father who was the father of the human Christ" (6,3, 119).

Andreev suggests that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are essentially the same hypostasis of the Trinity. ". . . God the Father is God the Holy Spirit - these are two names for the same first face of the Trinity" (6, 3, 120).

The third hypostasis thus remains vacant. Andreev wants to fill it with the "world's feminine essence." The Trinity, in Andreev's interpretation, is nothing but the Father - Mother - Son. The second, feminine hypostasis simultaneously represents eternal virginity, maternity, spirit, and wisdom.

It is difficult to say whether Andreev was familiar with the ideas of Anna Shmidt, Dmitri Merezhkovsky or Sergei Bulgakov. Anna Shmidt (1851-1905) has postulated in her treatise "The Third Testament" (1886?) that the third hypostasis of God is "God's Daughter, the Eternal Virgin."

Merezhkovsky did not deny that the Holy Spirit is God's third hypostasis, but he claimed it to be feminine and identical to the Holy Mother, the symbol union of divine spirit and earthly flesh. Bulgakov developed sophiology as a specific division within Eastern theology but his deliberately vague doctrine of Sophia as a separate hypostasis outside the Trinity was condemned by the Orthodox hierarchy (1935), even though Bulgakov did not assert directly that Sophia is the fourth hypostasis of Divinity. It is likely that Church authorities censured sophiology as heresy because it seemed to pattern the Trinity after a trivial family union and it introduced seductive sexual elements into the dogmatic core of Christianity.

Indeed, the mysterious essence of the Trinity is undermined when the Mother of God is substituted for the Holy Spirit. The concept of the Holy Spirit may have derived from the concept of Hokhma, or Divine Wisdom in the Old Testament. But when the "second" hypostasis of the Son was incorporated into the concept of God in the New Testament, the "third" hypostasis had to be revised and purified of any feminine elements in order to avoid any associations with an earthly family structure. Thus the divine wisdom of the Old Testament could become the Holy Spirit of the New Testament."

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From: Deborah
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Andreev

This is amazing material. I was also deeply touched by your previous post on Julian the Apostate.

One bit I find interesting regarding the dichotomy of the virgin vs the sensual woman is the Grail Knights in Parsifal. They are married, happily so. Parsifal himself, if I remember rightly, marries. There is no rejection of human sexuality nor a glorification of celibacy as essential to a spiritual path.

Anyway, thanks for sharing all this great Russian material.

Deborah

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Soloviev

Bradford, can you sing me your song of Sophia? Can you break it down to Sophia and nothing else? Can you sing a song of Sophia?

d

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From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:33 pm
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Soloviev

As a poet I enjoy thinking and I enjoy showing interest in what depths of wisdom others have fathomed regarding Sophia. I'm certainly not going to suggest that slooshing around in the world of Sophia will get you to understand the advanced poetics, outline and extension of Sophia inspirations. Encountering and researching Sophia on this list, has mainly been done by Deborah, Danny, You and I.

Lyric poetry and living knowledge of Poetics and how the lips and why the lips are placed at the surface of the face and in the sound region at the forward placement, has enormously rich insights connected to them. I wonder if anyone has even read a Keats poem.

The amount of research and study I do on Sophia and connecting it to the Russian soul of Perkofiev and understanding his frame of reference coming from the roots of Russia is astonishing enough for now. I hardly see the work done by those who claim to be so passionate about Sophia showing any signs that they grasp the extent of who and what Sophia does.

What part does the Holy Ghost Play?
What part does the Initiation of Parsifal play?
What part does NUT play?
What part does Objective Soul structure from AnthroSophic play?
How does Michael and the Michael School prepare the Sophia in the soul of humanity?
How does Repro-technology and reproduction and GM play into understanding Sophia?
What is the Whore of Babylon in relation to Sophia?
How will Sophia proctect and work with I AM's if Ahrimanic cloning is developed?
What poets represent lyric thinking and art?
What is the difference between Novalis and Lazarus in relation to Sophia?
How does the ninefold being of the human psyche become the Child of sophia?
What does this have to do with Star knowledge and human incarnation?

I see very little effort at researching into those who have been the best spokes people on Sophia. Russians and the future of the 6th epoch is way out in time and who knows what Earth changes or catastrophes will proceed this. When I place Cherynobl as a destructive core for 900 years in Russia, what type of damage in waste and soil poisoning will Russia present, will these be Dead Zones? Or will Siberia awaken as a Tropic region? When I imagine the 6th epoch arising in Russia, it would seem there is ample amount of fascinating potential to have those who wish to embrace Sophia to find various profound threads to explore.

The Michael School asks of its members to show active study and interest in themes...The poetic muse doesn't come because a student of Sophiology swims in adoration without deepened grasp and wants to be sung to by all those poets who do do their homework.

I would be highly interested in the person Raymon indicated whose name was BEoft something. I would be very interested if you grasped or showed me some of Beofts insights or whoever the guy was, and what his relation to Goethe was and why he doesn't talk to Anthros anymore. I would like to understand that. Why don't you look up the gentleman Raymon suggested and present some observations I can work with to see how he misunderstood Goetheanism?

Like you, I certainly don't feel compelled to do homework that others assign me unless I am interested and inspired to do so. My wife, Susan Riley was the chief researcher of Sophiology and started at least one of the sites concerning Sophia. With Robert Powell, she did many conferences and searched for souls over the globe who represented Sophiology.

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Seeking Sophia/Soloviev

Bradford:

I hardly see the work done by those who claim to be so passionate about Sophia showing any signs that they grasp the extent of who and what Sophia does.

But She wants to hear your song Bradford. It is never enough that we share her with others we must also share her with ourselves. All that you have written below is great but it is not a song. What does your heart know of Sophia? What do you feel about her? Why do you feel the way you do about her? What in you aches to experience her, to know her, to see her.

We can look at her from the standpoint you offer and this leads us but we need to 'hear' of her through the hearts that have experienced her. It will lead us to our intuitions of her and it is there she will meet us. And we shall know her as she knows us. We shall be within the Godhead, the Womb when we meet. The rest will fall in place as we seek her with words.

Love, d

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat May 1, 2004 9:00 am
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Dottie

dottie zold wrote:

She wants to hear your song Bradford. It is never enough that we share her with others we must also share her with ourselves. All that you have written below is great but it is not a song. What does your heart know of Sophia? What do you feel about her? Why do you feel the way you do about her? What in you aches to experience her, to know her, to see her.

Dottie;

Sometimes you press the patience of Job. I consider this gas balloon of feeling life, unpenetrated by Michael thought, swirling in a Burka of dervish Godhead reverie, nothing to do with the grounded nature of Spiritual Science. I don't expect I am worthy for personal interviews with the godhead. Let me express it bluntly. Not one of us here is worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead. Steiner has presented the facts of why this so and with these fact we should be able to pin-point our own developmental positions. It is called Self Knowledge.

Thinking - Feeling and Willing are a trinity. When presented with a massive download of Russian research and insights, this is all you can add to it.. Feel Sophia inside you? You don't even know what this feeling is. For you it has swirled around Magadalene as the true Core of Reality, as the one the Father truly loves and Christ adores more than others because of her sterling feeling life. And I happen to love Magdalene's myth and more connect this to the greatness of Corelli.

If you have followed Frank's wonderful translation of Myriam, such a gutsy fighter, certainly, must past through many trials of soul before she can Swirl in Divine Sentimentality. For by then, it is not sentimentality it is awakened organs of perception that link Feeling with the Endocrine system. The topic of Aphrodite and the Endocrine system has been presented over and over again even in relation to Seeing Venus, in the Christian Rosenkreuz mystery. It has been avoided just as many times. Read my lips. Endocrine system.

Pineal and Pituitary endorphins and swirly feelings with out directed conscious intuition is not Michael School method. Thought leads feeling that is POF 101. God doesn't come down, this over used phrase by every fundie, god doesn't come down and talk to you or George Bush. Angel can do this and so can your higher being. I mentioned recently that the Angels are working feverishling against the Ahrimanic Deception... good grief. Standing before such a lecture like "The Angels Work in the Astral body of Man" or following the participation of the Angel in placing a human soul in Language and Nurturing, Mothering, and Nurturing the Child through their destiny...Angel-Angel-Angel.

To actually hear what you refuse to hear over and over again is that for Christ to bear the Father God, he was terribly alone as his entire bone system was infused, as the Seraphim, Cherubim and Thrones shivered their fire into the prepared condition of TWO GREAT INITIATES and an ELOHIM. That ain't us. Let's get real around here.

Holy Ghost, as well as ANGEL-Archangel-Archai is a part of those Tongues of inspired flame you are hoping will leap out of poets hearts and minds, the minute you mention that you are the true flame of Sophia on Earth.

So, am I totally off base in my grasp of how you or my wife, Susan Riley were the torch bearers of Sophia on planet Earth? Because, as you know, I am the demented poets torch bearer on Earth for demented cast aways of the Michael School. So we really need to compare notes here. Lets ask Mike our resident shrink? He is used to handling tough cases, his own biography has been a tough case, but I do admire his realism.

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat May 1, 2004 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Dottie

Bradford:

So, am I totally off base in my grasp of how you or my wife, Susan Riley were the torch bearers of Sophia on planet Earth? Because, as you know, I am the demented poets torch bearer on Earth for demented cast aways of the Michael School. So we really need to compare notes here.

Oh Bradford.......... you are totally off base with how I am thinking and feeling on this subject. And I guess the email way of communicating has a lot to do with it. But that is okay. I am not a torch bearer of Sophia rather I am a lover of Sophia. I am thinking through my questioning of 'share me a song of Sophia' I will find others who have experienced her and my soul will light up with even more hope as the fire spreads.

Your post regarding my experience of Magdalene is way off as well as my experience of why her relationship was special to Christ. I mean it had to be, there is no way around it but that is another point and post. And, Bradford, you have no idea what the capacity is of the people you are interacting with on line. You may claim for yourself the things you project ontowards me, not meaning that in a negative manner, but that is your story and not mine. You don't think one can intuit/feel/experience the Godhead? What do you think happens when you are meditating on the Doctors verses? Or rather what do you imagine can happen? It is not an all or nothing point Brad, rather it is an ongoing stream that weaves throughout all of incarnations.

I shall look to the points you bring up after my walk but I have to say it reminds me of the fundies and their claim to be low life sinners. Well, I say to them, 'go ahead' and I shall recognize my birthright as a child of God'. So, if you are judging what you think would show one is capable of doing or experiencing or knowing a thing you make a huge mistake.

Till later,
Dottie

p.s. Why would it be so hard for you, oh great poet of Michael, to sing a song of Sophia? Are you denying my experience while not having any of your own? The patience of Job has naught to do with it rather I am asking you to get real. And your dancing around the subject versus singing your song speaks volumes. Words sometimes get in the way of allowing us to experience a thing. We are good talking about it but what about experiencing it?

psst. and towards the Myriam remark, I shall give you a pass. Maybe.

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat May 1, 2004 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Dottie

Bradford:

Sometimes you press the patience of Job.

I agree. Yet, I feel compelled to call Sophia's voice forward from those who have experienced Her Essense. (I like caps, again)

Bradford:

I consider this gas balloon of feeling life, unpenetrated by Michael thought, swirling in a Burka of dervish Godhead reverie, nothing to do with the grounded nature of Spiritual Science.

And that is fine. But if you knew Sophia like I know Sophia, a song in there somewhere:) you would know it has to do directly with the streams of Gnostics, Rosicruicians, Anthroposophia specifically. And Michael, being the mightiest son of Sophia, according to Mr. Prokofieff, mediates this offering in possibly the same manner as was when He was the countanence of the OT and that of the NT. I like the trio of ChristMichaelSophia and that is how I experience them almost as One in a sense.

And if we look at this oneness it seems, and I am not sure I completely can state it from Dr.Steiners Isis Sophia Maria book, it it because they come from the same lineage of the star the Gnostics were able to experience. If we completely get past the historic aspects of the Golgatha event and contemplate on that which was before the beginning Dr. Steiner says we come to a star and from this star is the lineage of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Sophia.

I am of the Gnostic stream Bradford as was Jacob Boehme, Soliviev and others. I do not only get the physical word of it, although I am not able to express it back to you, but I get the beginningness and that is why I am at home in left field so to speak. My intuitions lead directly to the spirit connections and I 'feel' them or experience them. And it is not like you, and it is not better than you but it is different than your way. I am learning to get it your way are you learning to get it my way? I ask as you are committed that one can not experience the Godhead and Sophia and so forth, yet you are aware that we are working towards Spirit Man. No matter how far off this may be the seeds have been sown and are sprouting here and there. Not just in words but also in Intuition and Inspiration.

Bradford:

I don't expect I am worthy for personal interviews with the godhead.

It's not an interview Bradford. It's an experience without words without thought just love and bliss. So much so that ones body caves in almost as this happens or at least it seems to as the body does not seem capable of handling that kind of bliss, almost as if the spirit must leave it in order for the vibration or whatever it is that happens to it. I don't think the spirit can stay in the body and experience the Godhead. So no interview.

Bradford:

Let me express it bluntly. Not one of us here is worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead.

No interviews.

Bradford:

Steiner has presented the facts of why this so and with these fact we should be able to pin-point our own developmental positions. It is called Self Knowledge.

And it is different for each of us. Although those on a similar path will experience possibly similar moments of recognition. Are you saying that Dr. Steiner says all of us are unable to experience living within the Godhead? As well can you please direct me towards the lecture where he speaks of such a thing. I realize we are watching out for deception and so forth and must always however this does not negate the experiences of those that have experienced this. It almost reminds me of my born again Christian friends who say that any vision or inspiration I came across must be from the devil, deception, as only certain people, particulary Priests of the church. Male priests.

Bradford:

Feel Sophia inside you? You don't even know what this feeling is.

Actually Bradford, it is you who has no idea what this feeling is or you would have recognized it within me. You did not and do not. And you do not even think it possible. How do you suppose she can enter into the recesses of your heart when you deny Her so? It is not possible. She will keep walking the streets looking in vain for those who dare to have a real relationship with her.

Not only do I know this feeling, I have seen Her. And it is the most awespiring vision one can have just about. It is exactly as Deborah posted earlier. I posted about it at the Ark a few years back. Which is interesting for me as I read your posts on different points of Soliviev and so forth as I came to this a few years back. I was not able to put it in words but come to it I did. I almost feel as if I am watching the world catch up to what I found while seeking abouts the Ark.

Bradford:

For you it has swirled around Magadalene as the true Core of Reality,

Bradford, it is the stream Magdalene represents. And you should know that by now with all your talk. Mabye if you decided to sense into Magdalene versus talking about her and explicating her you might understand and then if you are open enough she leads you to Sophia.

She is the daughter representation of Sophia. She is the representative of Anthroposophia no matter how backwards that may sound. And if you look to see you will know of what I speak. She is not soley the Virgin Mother or Mother Mary. She is the three in one and Magdalene is included in this. I can not do anything to make it so, it is by itself. And a further mystery shall show itself before I pass from this life. I do not know by whom but I know it will be told.

And she is not core, she is of the trinity. She is a part of the core. Just as Jesus was inhabited so was Magdalene.

Bradford:

as the one the Father truly loves and Christ adores more than others because of her sterling feeling life.

Wrong. The Father loves all. The Father isn't even anyway in the manner you speak. I do not say the Father loved her more than the others. I say Jesus loved her more than the others and it is clear in the Nag Hammadi. And it is not like a love as we experience rather it is a love because she understood Him not because of any other thing. The love was unto the enlightment not the physical kind of love. The kiss was the sharing of knowledge not the physical kiss. Would you deny that she knew more than the others? Can you? Who knew more in your mind? And no it was not a Lazarus. And she knew before even a Lazarus was spoken of.

Bradford:

And I happen to love Magdalene's myth and more connect this to the greatness of Corelli.

It is not a myth it is a happening.

Bradford:

If you have followed Frank's wonderful translation of Myriam, such a gutsy fighter, certainly, must past through many trials of soul before she can Swirl in Divine Sentimentality.

What is Divine Sentimentality? And of course, just like the 'stepmother' or as the stepmother, she brought these from the lives past and transformed them at this particular point in time. And in all actuallity I believe they were already transformed before this particular point in time. That it was a living out for the witnessing of the Christs descent.

Bradford:

It has been avoided just as many times. Read my lips. Endocrine system.

Bradford, I don't understand your point on this. Maybe others do and then I would wonder if they did why they did not say something.

Bradford:

Pineal and Pituitary endorphins and swirly feelings with out directed conscious intuition is not Michael School method.

If you are referring to me and this 'swirly feeling' thing I have to say this is not my experience. It is very grounded. It was denied many times till I finally came to understand what was happening and was able to see how it was all laying out before me, including Christian Rosenkrutz. And I am watching it little by little come together.

And I care not a whit for our understandings of Michael School method as if you are the say all be all to this point. Michael works in many ways and his ways are not our ways. You would have no idea with whom he works and how. I care not a whit for your claims on this.

And now I ask for your Michael experiences Bradford. For one who writes much I ask very little. Just look inside your heart and bring them out. And if you come back to me one more time with 'oh your swirly dervish fishy whatever I will say again your silence speaks tomes.

Bradford:

Thought leads feeling that is POF 101.

And what lead thought Bradford? What is it that leads thought? Whose are we Bradford? Whose?

Bradford:

God doesn't come down, this over used phrase by every fundie, god doesn't come down and talk to you or George Bush.

God manifests Itself all the time. Messages are sent and are seen everywhere by those who can see them and hear them. Even Christ says for those who have ears to hear, hear ye, and those who have eyes to see, see ye. God does speak to us Bradford even through the ants in Hindu literature. We are not speaking of 'Dottie, stop picking on Peter and Tarjei'. So, if this is what you are envisioning of my meaning you are not correct.

Bradford:

I mentioned recently that the Angels are working feverishling against the Ahrimanic Deception... good grief.

Yeah yea yeah Bradford. Me and Ahriman are hanging out together with Sophia and Michael having a few buds.(beer) You sound just like a fundie with the judgement on who can have the Sophia experience and God experience. Christ JEsus told us we are children of God and he is our Father. And my take is the body aspect but then again I know that gets me in trouble but the Doctor alludes to this as well if not coming straight out and saying it.

Ahriman is not hanging out in my house Bradford. It seems you are the one who went and bought the lie that you can not have these experiences I am talking about. Hmmm.

Bradford:

Standing before such a lecture like "The Angels Work in the Astral body of Man" or following the participation of the Angel in placing a human soul in Language and Nurturing, Mothering, and Nurturing the Child through their destiny...Angel-Angel-Angel.

And who is the Angel working for Brad? Anyone we know? Whew.

Bradford:

To actually hear what you refuse to hear over and over again is that for Christ to bear the Father God, he was terribly alone as his entire bone system was infused, as the Seraphim, Cherubim and Thrones shivered their fire into the prepared condition of TWO GREAT INITIATES and an ELOHIM.

What the hell are you talking about? I won't hear this? Says who?

Bradford:

That ain't us. Let's get real around here.

Yup, you're a fundie of a different nature it seems. You will block the door but not enter. Go through the door Brad experience your birthright as a child of God.

Bradford:

Holy Ghost, as well as ANGEL-Archangel-Archai is a part of those Tongues of inspired flame you are hoping will leap out of poets hearts and minds, the minute you mention that you are the true flame of Sophia on Earth.

Nope. Not it. I was just wanting to inspire you to share your Sophia experience so we could meet one another. That's all. I melt when I hear others who speak on her.

And I do not really know what you mean by saying 'one is a true flame of Sophia'...what do you mean by this. Do you think I am claiming I am one with Sophia or whathave you? I am in the service of Michael, Brad, and Christ. It is Sophia I am seeking in consequence of this. I found Christ, Michael and now Sophia. It just deepens my life and allows me to keep deepening it and hopefully till the time it is for me to go back home.

Bradford:

Lets ask Mike our resident shrink? He is used to handling tough cases, his own biography has been a tough case, but I do admire his realism.

Hmm. Do you know my biography Bradford? And if you did or even take in a few of the things I mentioned on the Ark you would have a pretty good idea how it is that Christ came to me and why it is that I am able to experience Him in the manner I have shared before. I am that reverent child that Dr. Steiner speaks of in How To Know Higher Worlds. He spoke my life experiences as that which is needed to experience the higher worlds. I have not experienced the higher worlds per se, I have however experienced Christ Michael and Sophia.

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sun May 2, 2004 8:17 am
Subject: Re: Seeking Sophia/Dottie

Bradford:

Sometimes you press the patience of Job.

Dear Braford, last night I could not find a way to express why it was that I continue to press the question at times. And this morning I remembered the 'feeling' of when I first posed the question: I experienced a longing for Sophia to 'experience' our seeking Her out. It became a sob in my throat to show Her our love and in that I asked the question.

I remember being on the Ark and experiencing Her there, and, Her almost seeking others out. And at times I would almost feel like I had the biggest secret in the whole world that wanted to be shared. But there were no takers. Well, that is wrong, there was Harvey, Catherine, Danny and Charlie for the most part and Stevie Zimm. And for the most part I did not know how to express it. It was Catherine that was able to slowly encourage it out of me. I mean I did not even know that Dr. Steiners group was the initiative for this Sophia: the hope of the world. I remember Catherine asking the question of our Angel of sorts or maybe it was Jerry but the point was the discussion of whom we felt guided America or even the Ark's existence. I recall Catherines comments about her Angel in a sense and I remember this distinct feeling it was Sophia, and I did not even know Her then. But the beauty of what Catherine brought was that I realized I did indeed have this connection with this Sophia, whatever she has to do with Dr. Steiner, but I did not understand it until she fully showed herself to me. And whoa that is a big one. But She is still a small one in the Anthroposophic stream it seems so far. Maybe it's because, as a few people have mentioned, this is not the time. But that is not true for all of us.

So, it was with a longing from within me to share with Sophia how much we love Her and seek Her. It wasn't about showing 'hey I am a flame or whathave you of Sophia, it was for Her. But I guess you did not get that.

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: Jo Ann Schwartz
Date: Sun May 2, 2004 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Seeking Sophia/Dottie

--- Bradford wrote:

I don't expect I am worthy for personal interviews with the godhead. Let me express it bluntly. Not one of us here is worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead. Steiner has presented the facts of why this so and with these fact we should be able to pin-point our own developmental positions. It is called Self Knowledge.

Dear Bradford,

Well, no doubt you are correct, sir. There is "[n]ot one of us here worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead."

And yet...
And yet....

Is there no room in your spiritual science for the mystery of Grace?

In wonder,
JoAnn

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Sun May 2, 2004 10:09 pm
Subject: Grace and the bottom line

Jo Ann Schwartz wrote:

Is there no room in your spiritual science for the mystery of Grace?

In wonder,
JoAnn

Well as my dear brother, "Bruce Almighty" said to George Burns, "say Good Night Gracie". Great Gracie was at bat, Michael School 3; Legion 23: It was the 5th Inning and Gracie came to bat. Infield hits, bunts, and too many outs, nobody on base. I always liked the underdawgs. Well if we see our team work shared over the globe, with our shabby little RS hats, old mitts, worn out cleats..I guess it's the only team I would root for. But then I'm a Lord of the Rings fan.

While our fully funded flashy Corporate opponents all look like Cheshire cats: Say, JoAnn, just thinking outloud here, if we had roughly 700 semi-functioning Waldorf Schools and various other Anthro works over the globe, what do we think the estimated budgets of all those striving works amount to in relation to, let say the following examples?

700 X $100,000.00 or $200,000.00. Another say, 200 centers, with maybe $25,000.00..What is our rough global budget? Now, who can measure grace against the numbers? I am curious just what the bottom line, might look like. Plus the investment of thousands and thousands of hearts, who with child or hope in hand call out for Divine Aid. Call forth with their incarnation and their children's incarnations, new schools, teachers and salaries.

THE OTHER GUYS:

"The military-academic complex is merely one of many readily perceptible, but largely ignored, examples of the increasing militarization of American society. While the Pentagon has long sought to exploit and exert influence over civilian cultural institutions, from academia to the entertainment industry, today's massive budgets make its power increasingly irresistible. The Pentagon now has both the money and the muscle to alter the landscape of higher education, to manipulate research agendas, to change the course of curricula and to force schools to play by its rules.

Moreover, the military research underway on college campuses across America has very real and dangerous implications for the future. It will enable or enhance imperial adventures in decades to come; it will lead to new lethal technologies to be wielded against peoples across the globe; it will feed a superpower arms race of one, only increasing the already vast military asymmetry between the United States and everyone else; it will make ever-more heavily armed, technologically-equipped, and "up-armored" U.S. war-fighters ever less attractive adversaries and American and allied civilians much more appealing soft targets for America's enemies. None of this, however, enters the realm of debate. Instead, the Pentagon rolls along, doling out money to colleges large and small, expanding and strengthening the military-academic complex, and remaking civilian institutions to suit military desires as if this were but the natural way of the world."

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0428-08.htm

"In 1958, the Department of Defense spent an already impressive $91 million in support of "academic research." By 1964, the sum had reached $258 million and by 1970, in the midst of the Vietnam War, $266 million. By 2003, however, any of these numbers, or even their $615 million total, was dwarfed by the Pentagon's prime contract awards to just two schools, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Johns Hopkins University which, together, raked in a combined total of $842,437,294.

War-Making U or U Make War?

As it turns out, the military and the Department of Defense (DoD) have an entire system of education and training institutions and organizations of their own, including the many schools of the National Defense University system (NDU): the National War College, the Industrial College of the Armed Forces, the School for National Security Executive Education, the Joint Forces Staff College, and the Information Resources Management College as well as the Defense Acquisition University, the Joint Military Intelligence College -- open only to "U.S. citizens in the armed forces and in federal civilian service who hold top secret/SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information) clearances" -- the Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center, the Naval Postgraduate School, the Naval War College, Air University, the Air Force Institute of Technology, the Marine Corps University and the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, among others. In fact, scholar Chalmers Johnson has noted in his new book on American militarism, The Sorrows of Empire, that there are approximately 150 military-educational institutions in the U.S.

While the service academies train a youthful corps of tomorrow's military officers, enrolled in the schools of the National Defense University are a group of selected commissioned officers, with approximately 20 years of service, and civilian officials from various agencies, including the Department of Defense, who are schooled in a curriculum that emphasizes "the development and implementation of national security strategy and military strategy, mobilization, acquisition, management of resources, information and information technology for national security, and planning for joint and combined operations." Further, good old' NDU sustains the golden-triangle military agencies, the high technology industry, and research universities by "promot[ing] understanding and teamwork among the Armed Forces and between those agencies of the Government and industry that contribute to national security." To this end, the school also opens spots to "industry fellows" from the private sector who, says NDU president and Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael M. Dunn, "bring ideas from industry to the Defense Department."

The power of the Pentagon extends beyond an ability to frame or dictate research goals to significant parts of our civilian education establishment. Higher education's dependence on federal dollars empowers the DoD to bend universities ever more easily to its will. For example, as Chalmers Johnson notes, until August 2002, Harvard Law School "managed to bar recruiters for the Judge Advocate General's Corps of the military because qualified students who wish to serve are rejected if they are openly gay, lesbian or bisexual." However, thanks to a quick reinterpretation of federal law, the Pentagon found itself able to threaten Harvard with a loss of all its federal university funding, some $300 billion, if its law school denied access to military recruiters. Unable to fathom life ripped from the federal teat, Harvard caved, ushering in a new era of dwindling academic autonomy and growing military control of the university.

The NSA, however, has to share the spotlight with a host of other military, militarized, or intelligence agencies and subagencies when it comes to the military-academic action The credo of the Army Research Laboratory (ARL) in Adelphi, Maryland, for instance, is "delivering science and technology solutions to the warfighter" which it strives to do by "put[ting] the best and brightest to work solving the [Army's] problems" by employing "a variety of funding mechanisms to support and exploit programs at universities and industry." The Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR) is also high on "University relationships" that provide it with "an excellent recruitment resource for high-caliber graduate and undergraduate students." Its SPAWAR Systems Center in Charleston, S.C, alone, has cooperative agreements with Clemson University, the University of South Carolina, The Citadel, the College of Charleston, Old Dominion University, North Carolina State University, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, the University of Central Florida and North Carolina A & T State University."

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Mon May 3, 2004 7:24 pm
Subject: The Case for "Fundagelism"

God save America ...

The race for the White House will be decided by fundagelicals. That's good news for twice-born George Bush

John Sutherland
Monday May 3, 2004
The Guardian

The word "fundagelism" has never appeared in the columns of this newspaper. The term is, however, current in the blogosphere - that cyberforum which nowadays carries the most interestingly paranoid political debate. "Fundagelism" is not a word that trips easily off the tongue. It's a crunching together of the even more mouth-boggling compound "fundamentalist evangelism". George W Bush is a fundagelist. Dad wasn't. George H Bush (not renowned for his Wildean wit) delivered his most memorable wisecrack on walking into a room full of fundagelists: "Gee! I'm the only person here that's only been born once."

His son is truly twice born, with two dads. Nor are the parents equal in the eyes of their son. The journalist Bob Woodward, as he recalls, asked the current president if he ever turned to the ex- president for help. "Well, no," replied Bush Jr: "He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength. There's a higher father that I appeal to."

There are, it is estimated, 90 million evangelical Christians in the US. If they can be mobilised, they will form a rock-solid foundation for November victory for the Republican incumbent. Chads need hang no more.

Of course, not all American evangelicals are fundagelicals any more than all Muslims are Islamic extremists. But lukewarm evangelicals (like the Islamists) are more likely to vote for their own kind - even if extremist - than the opposition.

What do fundagelicals instinctively oppose? Gay marriage, abortion, gun control, taxes, the UN (and the currently top-rated candidate for anti-Christ, Kofi Annan), withdrawal from Iraq, Michael Moore, Janet Jackson's left breast.

What do they believe in? Christian values and the future as foretold in the Book of Revelation. According to a Time Magazine poll (which strains credulity but seems to be valid) 59% of Americans trust that St John's prophecies will be fulfilled - probably during their lifetime. November could be a last opportunity to vote for God's preferred candidate. Iraq (ancient Babylon) figures centrally in the fundagelist vision of things, as does the Rapture, and the imminent mass conversion of the Jews (hence fundagelist-Zionism).

The White House has recently been accused of inveighing (via Nasa) against the movie The Day After Tomorrow (out on May 28) because it narrates the wrong apocalypse. One caused by man-made global warming, that is, rather than God's white-hot rage against sinners. The apocalypse depicted in Tim LaHaye's Left Behind books is, we assume, the US government-approved version.

Fundagelism presents problems for the Democratic party as it girds itself for the coming campaign. John Kerry is a Catholic. A former altar boy, he is (to the irritation of Catholic bishops) in favour of women's reproductive rights. Last week Naral Pro-Choice America, the country's leading lobby for legal abortion, endorsed Kerry's candidacy.

Kerry so-called. Until a couple of years ago, the Democratic front- runner was assumed to be as Boston Irish as his namesake county. Newspaper sleuthing discovered that his paternal grandfather was, in fact, a Czech, Fritz Kohn, who changed his name. Kerry lost relatives in the Holocaust. Race-hate websites nowadays routinely abuse him as "Kerry (Kohn aka Cohen)". Famously, Kerry is a decorated Vietnam war hero who, like Siegfried Sassoon, threw his medals away in disgust at what he came to see as a futile colonial war.

Was ever a candidate for the presidency more triangulated? Pro- choice Catholic, Shamrock-Jewish, warrior-pacifist? In any rational contest, to be all things to all voters should be an advantage. But with fundagelism riding high, Kerry looks 110% flip-flop.

Last Thursday, the American PBS network ran a programme The Jesus Factor. It made (for Democrats and, dare one say it, democrats) depressing viewing. America, it suggested, is aching for certainty. Any certainty. Fundagelism supplies it. God help America is all I can say."

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