Reading and Falsehoods

Steiner on karma and illness


From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:22 pm
Subject: Steiner on karma and illness

Andrea wrote:

If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat diseases from the standpoint of the investigations on the links of the different "bodies" of Human Being.

Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:

"If we want really to understand health and illness, we must bear in mind how complicated the circumstances are. Illness need not be a matter of individual karma only; the karma of a whole people has to be taken into account. An interesting example of how things in the spiritual life are inter-related can be seen in the migration of the Huns and Mongols who poured from Asia into the West. The Mongols were stragglers of the Atlanteans. While the Indians, the Germans and other peoples were progressing, the Mongols had remained behind. Just as the animals have separated off from the evolutionary path of mankind, so have certain lower peoples and races fallen behind. The Mongols were Atlanteans whose physical development had taken a downward course. In the astral bodies of such decadent people an abundance of decaying astral substance can be seen. When the Mongols fell upon the Germans and other Central European peoples, they created a wave of fear and panic. These emotions belong to the astral body, and under such conditions decaying astral substances will flourish. Thus the astral bodies of Europeans became infected and in later generations the infection came out in the physical body, affecting not merely individuals but whole groups of peoples. It emerged as leprosy, that terrible disease which wrought such devastation in the Middle Ages. It was the physical consequence of an influence on the astral body."

(Steiner, At the Gates of Spiritual Science pp. 65-66)

A few pages later, Steiner expounds upon the relation of karma to physical heredity, the emergence of an "evil race", the distinction between "ascending" and "declining" races, and the "purpose of evolution"; as well as the role of the "Aryan race" and the various "missions" of the various "sub-races". Earlier in the book Steiner explains that racial differences are not merely physical; they impact the moral nature of the person, as well as their astral body and "I". Savages and Europeans are of a different moral and intellectual nature, according to Steiner, and this difference is clearly marked in the higher members of their being. Regarding the physical body, etheric body, astral body, and the I, Steiner proclaims:

"Every human being has these four members; but there is a difference between a primitive savage and a civilised European, and also between the latter and a Francis of Assisi, or a Schiller. A refinement of the moral nature produces finer colours in the aura; an increase in the power of discrimination between good and evil also shows itself in a refinement of the aura. In the process of becoming civilised the "I" has worked upon the astral body and ennobled the desires. The higher the moral and intellectual development of a man, the more will his "I" have worked upon the astral body. The seer can distinguish between a developed and an undeveloped human being."

(Steiner, At the Gates of Spiritual Science p. 15)

Peter

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From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: Steiner on karma and illness

Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:

Sounds like a bad note being passed in class... Here read this, pisst, pisst, look what johnny called sally, pisst, pass it on. Now Ghengis Khan was a fine lad. The wonderful film with Alec Baldwin "The Shadow" that went nowhere haf a wonderful opening sequence to it, with Ghenghis Khan. The film was called "The Shadow". The opening sequence was stunningly interesting to our topic.

Naturally the reference I make to the film, and the failure you have of making any kind of case against Steiner with your references, becomes even more obvious with what follows.

But just off the top of my head, the TAO and the TAOTL were references to beings on the Atlantean Altars. Taotl was the part of the material borrowed from matter to shape forms. The Taotl part of the scheme was the being who handles number, measure and weight and was fairly important on the Atlantean altars.

The Tao was the ringing music of the spheres part of the Spirit and the Taotl as matter to cloth the spirit worked together to cloth spiritual beings, the animal kingdom in shrink wrap skin clothing. But Taotl moved along the evolutionary line of Gold the Templars and the Aztec altars. TAOTL gets progressively meaner and we can trace this influence right up to the Third Reich.

Now the point was that Genghis Shocka Khan had a good dose of the this Being who once shared the altars with TAO. Genghis was the walking thrust of this being, fully inspired, for some time and the opening of the film, "The Shadow" shows just what I mean by this. The opening sequence of "The Shadow" gives a remarkable window into this Taotl.. but the rest of the film was just junk.. the opening had potential.

Now the invading hordes laid down such a wave of astral terror, such disturbing imaginations of torture and fear that the astral blanket of vivid nightmare and fear settled in as a form of parasitical disease that allowed the immune systems of Europe to become receptive to the plague. If we look at St. Anthony's fire and the boils that erupted on the skin and the Colmar painting that healed those afflicted, we see right into a window of Mel Gibson's "The Passion". The Colmar paintings cured people of St. Anthony's fire which was an extreme astral disturbance. The painting was done by the Initiate Grunewald and the painting itself was so dramatic, and I have studied these paintings carefully, that they cured certain astral diseases that appeared at the time. The Rats were one thing with the Plague, but the spread of the disease was in conjunction with The FEAR FACTOR of the Mongul hordes.

The example you gave does not support your pet thesis but it was a wonderful window into the depths of Steiner. It rather supports Daniel and Steiner's understanding of the integration of etheric and astral bodies with the immune system and weakness that bring causes and effects from strange quarters to blanket and infect the astral world. Your quotes do connect to my 12th lecture study of "Man as Symphony" and it was really a prime example of the type of parasitical receptivity described in the 12th lecture given by Steiner in 1923.

Another thing it doesn't support for you, is the blatant difference between St. Francis and Fredrich Schiller and a Cannibal. It doesn't support your thesis or ideas, it rather goes to prove what all of us have said all along. The I AM penetrates and elaborates the Intellectual Soul, Consciousness Soul, Spirit Self...etc.. and this makes the individual and cultural development itself, different from those who have yet to take up higher learning and abstract thought or those who have not been exposed to culture development at all.

Your example is like saying there is no difference for normal observation between Abhraham Lincoln and Jeffery Dahmer. Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul in different ways. Just like Cannibalism not only causes mad cow by eating brains of animals but cannaibals also degenerate by eating themselves. Depravity and having a degenerate group under the Mongol Hordes, inspired by the most vicious degenerating spirit under the TAOTL, Atlantean altars doesn't even come close to proving your point. It rather proves Steiner right once again.

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:15 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Steiner on karma and illness

Hi Bradford, thanks for your refreshingly frank post. You wrote:

the failure you have of making any kind of case against Steiner with your references

Steiner isn't on trial, and there is no case against him as such. My case is about Steiner's teachings on race and ethnicity.

TAOTL gets progressively meaner and we can trace this influence right up to the Third Reich.

I've got another movie recommendation for you. Go see Hellboy. It has a lot of fun making light of this sort of comic-book history.

Now the invading hordes laid down such a wave of astral terror, such disturbing imaginations of torture and fear that the astral blanket of vivid nightmare and fear settled in as a form of parasitical disease that allowed the immune systems of Europe to become receptive to the plague. If we look at St. Anthony's fire and the boils that erupted on the skin and the Colmar painting that healed those afflicted, we see right into a window of Mel Gibson's "The Passion".

You mean Mel's got some sort of disease? That might explain a lot about his movie.

The Colmar paintings cured people of St. Anthony's fire which was an extreme astral disturbance. The painting was done by the Initiate Grunewald and the painting itself was so dramatic, and I have studied these paintings carefully, that they cured certain astral diseases that appeared at the time.

Well that's a relief. Maybe Mel can find the time to get himself to Alsace for the cure, and his next movie might not be such dreck.

Another thing it doesn't support for you, is the blatant difference between St. Francis and Fredrich Schiller and a Cannibal.

Uh, Bradford? Steiner doesn't mention cannibals in the passages I quoted. Is there some reason you thought cannibalism was relevant in this context?

this makes the individual and cultural development itself, different from those who have yet to take up higher learning and abstract thought or those who have not been exposed to culture development at all.

You mean that the people Steiner calls "primitive savages" had not been exposed to cultural development at all? They grew up outside of culture? In a space station orbiting the earth maybe? Or an airtight bubble somewhere, sealed off from the outside world?

Your example is like saying there is no difference for normal observation between Abhraham Lincoln and Jeffery Dahmer.

Dahmer was a criminal. "Primitive" peoples are not, as such, criminals. Perhaps you think otherwise?

Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul in different ways.

Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different kinds of souls from other peoples?

Just like Cannibalism not only causes mad cow by eating brains of animals but cannaibals also degenerate by eating themselves.

What does cannibalism have to do with it? Are you trying to tell us that you think all "primitive" peoples are or were cannibals? And would this explain why some of them "had to die out" in your view?

Curious,

Peter

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:42 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Andrea wrote:

If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat diseases from the standpoint of the investigations on the links of the different "bodies" of Human Being.

[PS:]

Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:

Andrea;

Oh good!! I see that Staudenmaier is interested in Anthrop.medicine! Well: Basic Steiner's test on Anthro Medicine:

GA 27 (with Ita Wegman) written 1921,
GA 312 /lect 1920
GA 314 (lect 1920-24)
GA 315 (lect 1922)
GA 317 (lect1924)
GA 318 (lect 1924)
GA 319 (lect 1924)

I think that you Peter since you're goin on to discuss medical matters, should know all about those subjects and also something about the, more or less, 370 books of Anthro Medicine that, in several languages, are available on the books market.

So can you be so kind, Mr Staudenmaier, to tell me what are your credentials about the matter or, at least, which of the above Steiner's books did you read ?

Moreover what do you know about today's development of anthrop.medicine ? What do you think , for instance , of the topic discussed in Helmut Kiene's basic work ? What do you know about the studies on "Viscum Album" and Immunology ?

What about the effects of Eurhytmy's Therapy on Autism ? There could be many different topics to be discussed but I stop here.

Andrea

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:21 pm
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Hi Peter Staudenmaier,

have you an intention to give an answer to the question posted below or have myself to conclude about it ?

Andrea wrote:

If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat diseases from the standpoint of the investigations on the links of the different "bodies" of Human Being.

[PS:]

Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:

Andrea;

Oh good!! I see that Staudenmaier is interested in Anthrop.medicine! Well: Basic Steiner's test on Anthro Medicine:

GA 27 (with Ita Wegman) written 1921,
GA 312 /lect 1920
GA 314 (lect 1920-24)
GA 315 (lect 1922)
GA 317 (lect1924)
GA 318 (lect 1924)
GA 319 (lect 1924)

I think that you Peter since you're goin on to discuss medical matters, should know all about those subjects and also something about the, more or less, 370 books of Anthro Medicine that, in several languages, are available on the books market.

So can you be so kind, Mr Staudenmaier, to tell me what are your credentials about the matter or, at least, which of the above Steiner's books did you read ?

Moreover what do you know about today's development of anthrop.medicine ? What do you think , for instance , of the topic discussed in Helmut Kiene's basic work ? What do you know about the studies on "Viscum Album" and Immunology ?

What about the effects of Eurhytmy's Therapy on Autism ? There could be many different topics to be discussed but I stop here.

Andrea

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Hi Andrea, you wrote:

have you an intention to give an answer to the question posted below

Nope.

Thanks for asking,

Peter

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: Steiner on karma and illness

Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

brad;

Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul in different ways.

peter;

Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different kinds of souls from other peoples?

Well lets see, we proved that a toxic wave of astral nightmare swept through Europe, provoked by butchers who had no mercy, no human compassion and no respect for village, town or culture. However the toxic wave was so horrifyingly primitive that we had to marvel, where the heck that came from? A wave of depravity, inspired by what?

Comic Books, maybe so. Atlantean installations in the Gobi were also the thing of comics back in the 1920's. You might not want to narrow your perception of all that leaks through culture, even in the form of comic books. Startling affirmations, twisted though they be, can be observed if you have a keen eye.

Since I worked at the CDC, I have had some time to study epidemics. The boils that appeared and were cured by those who had St. Anthony's fire, might do well today with different remedies than a stunning vivid painting. But the vivid painting of the Crucifixion and Resurrection, the most stunning one ever painted, was placed as comic book panels, while the patients, in pain, experienced an entire astral agony, with the vividness of the painting by Grunewald.

Steiner was very, very advanced in his study of the immune system, so termed today, but classically termed the Etheric Body. The Etheric Body is the lymphatic immune system and this has been documented very carefully, long before anybody even imagined immune system. Today you rank among the ignorant in the fact that you do not know how to connect immune system with etheric body. It reveals a cultural stuntedness that you share with the AMA.

The Etheric body is like many ground breaking terms and insights. In retrospect you might say, Oh, that can't mean that or this or the other. Modern humanity, not the Polynesians, or Mayans were to encounter and bear more and more forceful illneseses. But isolated tribes, left over from ancient migrations were etherically like green house plants. However in Spiritual Science, karma and medicine and in particular the example of the invading Hordes you gave, are perfect examples of this very parastical weakness of the immune system, having been spread by sheer, unchecked terror.

I can point out to you the etheric scar that Michael Jackson got in his development when his parents gave him female hormones to keep his voice high and his disturbing childhood stardom, failed to enter puberty properly. I can point out the interface to certain manifesations of illness, or we could even look at Philip the Fair of circa 1330 something. Here we can examine very interesting problems of the astral body. I know you wouldn't be able to follow, but you obviously came here to get an education which you lack.

Terror, horror, and "The Nightmare on Elm STreet" movies, have to do with the Astral body. It is clear that such a cartoon series as "NightMare on Elm Street", all had to do with falling asleep and leaving your physical body in your bed and entering your astral body and the lower astral world. Oh it pays to pay attention to cultural cartoons. Once out of your body, in the world of images and nightmares, you were in an astral landscape of DreamCAtchers. Dreamcatchers were spider web like constructions to enable you to capture your journeys in the astral world. We can learn a lot from culture when we look at it carefully. At least 'we' meaning those who are operating with a higher intelligence than you.

The essence of Depravity or Moral development proceeds two ways. Studied conscious depravity is nothing less than packing up the Jewish population and sending them to ovens. Zyclon B Cyanide has a shattering occult effect. Cyanide is a peculiar substance for the I AM. Only a scientist can go from cyanide to the core of comets in space and the destiny of Halley's comet linked to MarK Twain in a matter of pages.

So if we enter a new CDC paradigm, (Center for Disease Control) we find not only astral illnesses, etheric problems, but also cyanide can deter the form of the I AM. Who had the most advanced research into the medical foundations of humanity? Who brought the deepest insights into the cure and cause of Cancer and the deepest understanding of epidemiology, well in advance of the CDC? Anthro Medicine that is who. But you are not thoughtful enough to see the connections. That means, frankly, you are not too bright.

Where ever groundbreaking, cutting edge research, profound research arose, at the center of it was Spiritual Science. Anything that researchers can investigate or uncover, is integrated within the foundations of Spiritual Science. There is to my mind, hardly one topic that Spiritual Science couldn't add something richer to the current research paradigms. Science is riddled with Spiritual Science but Science does realize it yet. But Spiritual Science sees both forms of research and how they interface. There is nothing in the research of Spiritual Science that is not at the foundation of everything that was ever made.

So as to the depravity, and primitive issues of an entire group, acting as a group surge, using a Cartoon (to you) inspired Being named TAOTL to bring a savage astral terrorism to the whole foundation of Europe, that is the case. The Attack was pretty impressive if you think about it. It certainly did not reflect a higher moral elevation of racial urges by human standards. However your standards are different. This Being who rode in on the invading hordes used advanced astral epidemiology techniques and this same being was also the cool industrial corporate (inspired) killer, for the mass ethnic cleansing of Jews or the African Ruwanda catastrophe.

And a radical statement from my Man as Symphony notes tell us that enormous amount of human bodies have had to be produced to take away the vast hatreds infecting the after life, brought across the borders into the physical world by humanity. This gives an indication of the peculiar mass population growth over the globe and the underlining reasons why so many ugly events of mass murder have gone on unchecked.

Human forms and souls have absorbed this pollution of hatred and Steiner presented what was required to cure these mass exterminations and cleanse the atmosphere of the Earth. The moral atmosphere of the Earth and hatred is literally absorbed by human forms. Steiner traced the cycle showing that humanity must get a grip on understanding, not misunderstanding their fellow man. Understanding is Wisdom and feelings are Love, which Brings togther Michael Wisdom with Sophia Wisdom... AnthroSophia.

Anyways those Mongol hordes failed your rankings of higher and lower categories because, depravity isn't highly ranked in terms of quality. So if you cannot see the difference between and refuse to see the difference between depravity and Christology you are back in the same dead end you started with.

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Steiner on karma and illness

Bradford, who appears to believe that racists drive pickup trucks, writes:

The Etheric body is like many ground breaking terms and insights. In retrospect you might say, Oh, that can't mean that or this or the other. Modern humanity, not the Polynesians, or Mayans were to encounter and bear more and more forceful illneseses.

There are lots of Mayan peoples and Polynesian peoples around today, Bradford. They belong to modern humanity as much as all other peoples.

So as to the depravity, and primitive issues of an entire group, acting as a group surge, using a Cartoon (to you) inspired Being named TAOTL to bring a savage astral terrorism to the whole foundation of Europe, that is the case.

So you believe that some racial and ethnic groups as a whole are more "primitive" than others, both physically and spiritually, and that these "primitive" groups terrorized Europe? But when Europeans encountered Native Americans, the latter died out not because of savage terrorism, but because of their own unfortunate racial constitution and because they were destined to do so? No attacks in that instance, no invading hordes, just cosmic-racial fate?

And a radical statement from my Man as Symphony notes tell us that enormous amount of human bodies have had to be produced to take away the vast hatreds infecting the after life, brought across the borders into the physical world by humanity.

Well, in that case, I guess it's a darn good thing that all those primitive bodies were lying around to take away the hatreds. Sure makes things easier for modern humanity.

Peter

Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different kinds of souls from other peoples?

Well lets see

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From: winters_diana
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:06 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Andrea lists the many accomplishments of anthroposophic medicine including:

What about the effects of Eurhytmy's Therapy on Autism ?

I'd be very interested in this one, if you can give whatever references or info. you have on eurythmy's effects on autism.

Thanks,
Diana

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From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:24 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Diana:

I'd be very interested in this one, if you can give whatever references or info. you have on eurythmy's effects on autism.

Thanks,
Diana

Hey Diana and Andrea,

I just read an article on this as well from a non anthro source. I will see if I can find mine as well.

d

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From: winters_diana
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:31 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Yes, please, Dottie, if you can find it, that'd be great, especially if it is really from a non-anthro source and it is specifically about effects of eurythmy for autism. Thanks!!

Diana

Diana:

I'd be very interested in this one, if you can give whatever references or info. you have on eurythmy's effects on autism.

Thanks,
Diana

Hey Diana and Andrea,

I just read an article on this as well from a non anthro source. I will see if I can find mine as well.

d

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:01 am
Subject: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

----- Original Message -----

Hi Diana,

unluckily the precise written ref about it are not in my files but in my paper archive ( that's a kinda of jungle!!). Anyway I can remember various sources for instance the French Magazine "Tournant". the "Anthro Worldwide" magazine and most of all something else that you cam also find on the web, I believe, visiting the Camphill Movement sites and related articles..

Here in the outskirts of Rome there is a Anthrop. free institution called "Casa Loic" ("Francis Loic Home") where some fellow eurhytmist, good friends of mine, works daily with several different kind of persons nwhp needing. "special care" , autism and Asperger affected included. This institution has been praised also by our backward-minded Health National Depart.!!!

Ad majora

Andrea

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From: winters_diana
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:52 am
Subject: Re: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness

Thank you for these leads, Andrea. I can relate to the paper jungle :)

Diana

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