Kucinich

From: Steinerhead
Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:22 pm
Subject: Kucinich

I was talking to a friend yesterday about the Presidential candidates here in the US. Many of my good friends are head over heals for Dennis Kucinich. One even said, after hearing him speak, that he was "the Waldorf candidate." Now I hear that he has studied Anthroposophy for some 20 years.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Truth and Love

Mike

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:56 am
Subject: Re: Kucinich

Mike wrote:
Many of my good friends are head over heals for Dennis Kucinich. One even said, after hearing him speak, that he was "the Waldorf candidate." Now I hear that he has studied Anthroposophy for some 20 years.

Hi Mike,

If this is true we need to get him to Detlef and Tarjei quick. We need the fierce Michael energy to forge the way. :)

Love,
Dottie

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From: Joel Wendt
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:20 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kucinich

Dear Mike,

Late last winter, a friend, who was becoming interested in Dennis Kucinich, asked me to do some research on him, and I was even paid to write a kind of brief.

I spent several days on the Internet, using those resources and found all manner of interesting facts. I also read a lot of his speeches and Googled some interesting phrases to see from where they might have come.

In addition, when he first came to New Hampshire, I was there to hear him speak. I knew his local volunteer campaign people in Keene, and my friend, who had me do the research, was close to him for a time before his national staff took control and began to dominate all the local people who were being attracted.

Granny D, who I know, met him, and gave an introduction for him at his first New Hampshire speech, had some interesting observations as well. I have also heard him speak on television several times as part of the Democratic traveling circus of debates.

Usually with people involved in any real way with anthroposophy you can catch some hint in the speaking patterns, or in the ideas which they express, that they have been influenced or otherwise have genuine knowledge of anthroposophy. I first heard the rumor that he claimed a 20 year acquaintance with Steiner about 4 weeks ago, from my friend who had me do the research. I basically don't believe it, although he (DK) may have read some Steiner 20 years ago, and such a fact lets him feel he can assert a kinship.

The analysis of his speeches and website that I did suggested that he, and his closest campaign staff, had been influenced by two books (which I bought and looked through): Marianne Williamson's Healing the Soul of America: reclaiming our voices as spiritual citizens (1997); and McLaughlin and Davidson's Spiritual Politics: changing the world from the inside out (1994). DK has appeared at New Age political symposia along side MS. Williamson, and I have seen a tape of a speech he gave in such a venue.

New Age political thinking tends to be unable to take hold of social existence in any kind of concrete fashion (observable in the two books above, and in many of DK's speeches, as well as material on his website written by staff). In AP jargon, we would say too much of the luciferic, or in other times we might have called it an excess of the idealistic.

He became most famous early on within the Internet progressive community (I belonged to several progressive discussion lists for about two years time, when I was running for President), for his proposal of a Department of Peace, and also his well known speech: Prayer for America.

When my friend was a near-insider for a brief time, I was paid to write a campaign strategy brief (by my friend), which was submitted to no effect, and also a short e-mail which was sent to DK's more private e-mail address. The short piece was well liked by several people, and ended up on my Celebration and Theater website, at: http://ipwebdev.com/celebration/intro.html.

Part of what I did during me research, was to try to think like his opponents might think, and what I could construct as attack television ads if DK was to win the nomination. The material I found (and which I have no doubt Karl Rove already has in hand) would destroy DK before he got out of the box in a head to head with Bush. Here are a couple examples:

One) His speeches to New Age political meetings are full of what we used to call "airy fairy" ideas and allusions. A thirty second spot could be created that would make him look silly, and perhaps even make viewers laugh. Probably nothing worse could happen to a national candidate than to be made that obvious the butt of humor. Two) After he lost his job as mayor of Cleveland, for having angered financial powers regarding the future of the municipal power resource, a local journalist wrote a long article about him that alleged that the journalist had consulted with four local psychiatrists or psychologists regarding DK's mental qualities. The anonymously quoted comments and diagnoses, if quoted in an attack ad, would be devastating.

Now a lot of progressives and spiritually oriented people like his ideas. He seems to be the first national candidate in decades to speak "our" language. His roots are Democratic industrial city labor, and he seems to have added on to those roots this New Age encrustation.

Granny D. who shared the stage with him, found his breathing during his speaking to be un-nerving (she is very wise and astute and savvy in her political thinking), which led her to wonder what was really going on inside his consciousness. She wasn't entirely sure she trusted him. This is, of course, a curious thing to observe (the breathing rather than the ideas), yet there is a definitely odd aspect to his rhythm of speaking.

All this raises the real question: In spite of his ideas, who and what is he, that would make him the person we really need to have all that power? In my view, for what its worth, he really is reaching beyond his native abilities in running for President. He'd make a great governor, or even a Senator. He certainly is an excellent Congressman. But to sit in the Oval office? Well the campaign is a test of sorts, and he would not survive that trial.

warm regards,
joel

On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 21:22, Steinerhead wrote:
I was talking to a friend yesterday about the Presidential candidates here in the US. Many of my good friends are head over heals for Dennis Kucinich. One even said, after hearing him speak, that he was "the Waldorf candidate." Now I hear that he has studied Anthroposophy for some 20 years.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Truth and Love

Mike


* --
Joel Wendt

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From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:21 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich/Bush

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt wrote:

Joel wrote:

The material I found (and which I have no doubt Karl Rove already has in hand) would destroy DK before he got out of the box in a head to head with Bush. Here are a couple examples:

One) His speeches to New Age political meetings are full of what we used to call "airy fairy" ideas and allusions. A thirty second spot could be created that would make him look silly, and perhaps even make viewers laugh. Probably nothing worse could happen to a national candidate than to be made that obvious the butt of humor. Two) After he lost his job as mayor of Cleveland, for having angered financial powers regarding the future of the municipal power resource, a local journalist wrote a long article about him that alleged that the journalist had consulted with four local psychiatrists or psychologists regarding DK's mental qualities. The anonymously quoted comments and diagnoses, if quoted in an attack ad, would be devastating.

Bradford comments;

Well Joel ole buddy, I can't say that I disagree with you, but Dennis and Dean..Okay..We know that Karl Rove is the Ahrimanic handler using the Sentient Soul Nationalism in Bush's psycho profile to tap all the other psychos, and the scary thing is, we are still sitting on a 50% issue..hoping that Nader and Joel get put in cabinet positions instead of Nader stealing the vote chunks needed to unseat this current Elephant in our living rooms.

by MICHAEL ORTIZ HILL

http://www.counterpunch.org/hill01042003.html

"We are lived by forces we scarcely understand," wrote W.H. Auden. What forces live us now as America again torques toward war?

George W. Bush is certainly the plaything of such forces as the geopolitics of oil but it seems that he is susceptible to other even darker archetypal concerns. Let me be blunt. The man is delusional and the shape of his delusion is specifically apocalyptic in belief and intent. That Bush would attack so many vital systems on so many fronts from foreign policy to the environment may seem confusing from the point of view of realpolitik but becomes transparent in terms of the apocalyptic worldview to which he subscribes. All systems are supposed to go down so the Messiah can come and Bush, seemingly, has taken on the role of the one who brings this to pass.

The Reverend Billy Graham taught Bush to live in anticipation of the Second Coming but it was his friendship with Dr. Tony Evans that shaped Bush's political understanding of how to deport himself in an apocalyptic era. Dr. Evans, the pastor of a large Dallas church and a founder of the Promise Keepers movement taught Bush about "how the world should be seen from a divine viewpoint," according to Dr. Martin Hawkins, Evans assistant pastor.

S.R. Shearer of Antipas Ministries writes, "Most of the leaders of the Promise Keepers embrace a doctrine of 'end time' (eschatology), known as 'dominionim.' Dominionism pictures the seizure of earthly (temporal) power by the 'people of God' as the only means through which the world can be rescued.... It is the eschatology that Bush has imbibed; an eschatology through which he has gradually (and easily) come to see himself as an agent of God who has been called by him to 'restore the earth to God's control', a 'chosen vessel', so to speak, to bring in the Restoration of All Thingss." Shearer calls this delusion, "Messianic leadership"-- that is to say usurping the role usually ascribed to the Messiah.

In Bush at War Bob Woodward writes, "Most presidents have high hopes. Some have grandiose visions of what they will achieve, and he was firmly in that camp."

"To answer these attacks and rid the world of evil," says Bush. And again, "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of this great nation." Grandiose visions. Woodward comments, "The president was casting his mission and that of the country in the grand vision of Gods Master Plan."

Bradford continues;

The Bush brat, undeveloped soul condition, appealing to millions of other Nominalistic graduates from previous incarnations, Rush bufoon Limbaugh etc. allow for a Frat Boy who is all hat and no cattle to wander around the Ahrimanic hallways of global power and his administration, while they fawn and coo sweet idiocy in his brain. Those of course in in Europe and following the rise of the Euro are, like the rest of us, understandably worried that we got a Weimar Ringer on our hands here.

Dennis is less of a threat, but in terms of attack adds, there are plenty of angles to this including the, God told me to do it B.S. and his little Frat boy image. Bush has some god awful psycho profiles and ability to be manipulated and speak the wise saws of Ahrimanic blather makes him the perfect weak link to be loved by the highly infected Fundamentalist stream of soul deception.

What we have here is an Internet Word Ether and media square dance, square off between All Souls Day of the Michael School and ancient Realists and All egregorial homecoming dance of the Ahrimanic, retrograde back to good ole solid 20th century Fascism. As America is gutted and world economy based on the Dollar is preparing for inflation to match wheel barrows of dollars that are worth nothing, into this catastrophe looming, The True problem Solver, Ahriman's actual incarnation, wants to enter, after the party has crashed around our heads and bring his own brand of magical matter manipulation to a satisfying clairvoyant science..

He ain't here yet, but he is sending us his post cards.

Bradford

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From: eyecueco
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:39 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt wrote:
Dear Mike,

All this raises the real question: In spite of his ideas, who and what is he, that would make him the person we really need to have all that power? In my view, for what its worth, he really is reaching beyond his native abilities in running for President. He'd make a great governor, or even a Senator. He certainly is an excellent Congressman. But to sit in the Oval office? Well the campaign is a test of sorts, and he would not survive that trial.

warm regards,

Damn Joel!

This is the most right on, intelligent post of yours I've ever read. You are, imo, on spot.

It takes more to sit in that Oval Office than people understand. There are things known there that would keep most of us awake the rest of our nights worrying if we were informed ot them.

So easy to criticize and find fault, quite another thing to rise to one's destiny and pay the piper, as Bush has done since 9-11. I was his worst critic when he went into the Oval office, would not even keep the television on the same channel if his face appeared, was convinced he was illiterate, coudl not read, still feel he has some kind of LDA speech-wise. But, 9-11 I sat on the edge of my bed in front of the tv and said, "Thank you, God, that Bush and his team are in the White House". Still feel the same, only more so.

Really, really pissed off tonight about what I'm reading here tonight.
pkl

Btw, another anthro related candidate last time around was Forbes.
His daughter, it seems, is married to an anthpop.
So what?
Being a student of Steiner does not automatically make one material of the presidency, in fact, it would be a deficit in these times. Think on that for a time before reacting.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:31 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, eyecueco wrote:

But, 9-11 I sat on the edge of my bed in front of the tv and said, "Thank you, God, that Bush and his team are in the White House". Still feel the same, only more so."

Bradford comments;

The whole world sat on the edge of their seats. Then started the 'either your for us or agin us', then alienating everyone in the international community and destroying the moral fabric of trust in the U.N. with cheap sniping shots.

So I am all for America forcing countries to answer serious questions about the future of the U.N. and I have always understood that all though the little mind of GW doesn't get it, the U.N. and all of us sitting on the edge of our seats needed stunned questions to be asked because of the Ahrimanic pre-emptive assault when we slammed into the 21st century. Ahriman and our snoozing government, allowing this immature executive branch to attain to such power has proven a danger to the world and has forced us to wake up and study just how senstive the human beings are who are now steering America.

But you apparently, have never formed a picture of an Ahrimanic or supersensible being in order to understand direct symptomology. Therefore as a fence sitting member of the School of Michael, I think you should take a good long look at yourself and your own little sentient fears. These are not small questions for small minds.

But if WE have all been awakened and alerted from the attack that opened the way for a retrograde reverse into the catastrophe's of the previous 20th century, into Plans for a new century, meaning the same old Ahrimanic power grabbing fascism, well the wake up call was worth it. Ahriman has a certain symptomology. God is not on America's side. Fallacy has the opportunity and lie has the opportunity to wake up the inner sense of discernment. This is not a mere political game being played out for your amusement.

I am very glad to hear you woke up and trusted George Bush to lead the world to Intelligent consideration of the immense questions we ran into as we hit the skids of the 21st century at the infamous Twin Towers or as Tolkien has said, the Two Towers. I am very glad that you are proud of this insignificant weasel we call a President. As you can see, I do not hold the same opinion and I Love Steiner's wisdom and I do not sit on a fence and play hand job with my midget sentient soul and imagine such undignified lies that are now the ruling pablum of American Press as anything but Ahriman awakening and drawing first blood to alarm the Michael School and thinking humans that it is dangerous to sleep.

Yes it is dangerous for the U.N. to sleep as well. But to have the audacity to proclaim trust in Colin Powell's stated betrayal and sheer nonsense at the U.N. and all that we refuse to look at, as greedy money grabbing inability to play with the rest of the world community, having evoked the face slapping honesty of Ahriman's lies and insults, I agree, we should be able to come to grips with our failures and to be moral guardians of the Ethos of the Christ impulse.

So, as a nail on the coffin, if you think you are following some Christ inspired insight flowing in behind GW, one can only have pity for your deluded train of thought. I shed tears for 9/11 and shock and stunned disbelief as you did. But what a hangover we have woke up to. I also was alive to shed tears, many over the years, for the two Kennedy's MLK Jr. and John Lennon. None of whom would find the faintest agreement with this current Frat Boy holding the seat that a Cosmopolitan mature and thoughtful human being should be holding. On that I agree as well. A mature human being should occupy the White House.

It takes a mature human being to occupy the White House or at least someone who appears that way to the fundamentalistic traitors of the Christ Impulse. George Bush, contrary to your opinion, is the most ill advised and clueless president we have ever had.

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From: eyecueco
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:57 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

Stop mixing politics with anthroposophy, and movies with reality, Bradford. Before calling me a delusional immature Michaelic fence sitter tell me how you have spent your years committed to the causeof Michael? CONSISTENTLY; as in a work record. I've been face to face daily with the Ahrimanic supersensible activity that you only hypothesize about sitting in front of your computer in your Georgetown apartment . Put yourself on the front lines before trying to shake this tree, Bubba. There is _talking_ anthroposophy and then there is _working_ anthroposophy, and there is a difference. My gifts were not in writing long winded tomes critizing who and what does not suit me, and calling those I consider beneath me in spiritual wisdom little minds, but, planting my feet on terra firma where the work gets done and paying the price to make a difference, - and there is a price. I not only held down a job in inner-city classrooms in one of the most troubled school districts in the country but, SUCEEDED in that job - for decades until I retired. It's soooo interesting on these lists who talks 'Michaelic' and who walks 'Michaelic'.
As for the big guy who name begins with C, hey, don't even go there.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:27 am
Subject: Re: Kucinich

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, eyecueco wrote:

critizing who and what does not suit me,

Bradford responds;

Oh by the way, sorry about sword play, I'm as touchy about America as you are these days.

If there is a face and name that I have met behind ( I cue) respecting a persons gifts and contributions is something I objectively can appreciate. I appreciate Ahriman for the same reasons, for being a teacher of cool objectivity. The coolness forces me to think. I presume everyone who had any feeling in their soul life stood stunned, exactly at the foot of our beds watching the horror of 9/11 and weeping at the tragedy.

I will damn well mix Politics and Anthroposophy to sift the occult reality behind current events. This Administration, this White House administration has brought shame on everything that America holds dear. It is a tragic shame that our Women and Men and Iraq citizens are caught in this monsterous deception, this mountain of lies. It is delusionary and wholly subjective to maintain belief or faith in anything this Administration spins.

So, I may not doubt that you are a Michael School particpant but I do strongly disagree with your belief in George Bush. On every other issue in the world we might have some secret code of friendship, but this particular disagreement around the events of our Time is non-negotiable with the exception of practicing the esoteric quality of tolerance.

I may love you as a brother from any other aspect of reality, and my opinion is not important in the scheme of things, but as to the idea of holding up George Bush as an example of the fine qualities of Americans, I strongly object. Nowhere in anything that a student of Spiritual Science can digest about Steiner and the Christ event would the maschinations of this administration be given a free pass. Except of course to admire the unity and discipline of Karl Rove keeping the entire GOP in lockstep. Exactly the way Christ could walk by a decaying dog and admire the fine teeth, there is always something to be admired in the most devastating events.

Caiaphas, Tom Delay and Condi Rice are all good at what they do, one has to admire the School and club spirit of it all.

What does this mean when students of Spiritual Science disagree on small issues? Not much especially if that soul is warm at the core. Friendship can weave around fundamental differences. Schooling to see what a lie is and what truth is can be locked in stubborn beliefs in the Catholic Church or to be merely part of a conservative train of ingrained thought. It can also indicate strong difference in Karmic experience and streams. But even those strong antipathies can be overcome.

But someone has to overcome them. The problem is that the person who forgives and forgets, the liberal, is called unpatriotic and as a general breed called liberals, become the brunt of the out right lies of such souls as Rush Limbaugh.. and going inside the very heart of Spritual Science you have the same attack dogs under the same cursed intellects who have hunted down Waldorf Education and assassinated it and continue to attempt to poison it with their Talk show called the Waldorf Critics.

I may find the U.N. in need of repair and I may find Waldorf in need of repair, but I don't find the teachings of Rudolf Steiner easy to improve upon. I'm a little stubborn on this issue, but I still can make fun of myself. Subjectively you can have any belief you desire, but nothing [he plants feet stubbornly] in objective spiritual observation says Georgie Boy is fit for the job of President of the United States. Except that it is fitting that he is President of the United States at this time. Perhaps he isn't the equal to Woodrow Wilson and certainly not to the wit and harsh lawyer grit of Lincoln but as design and retrograde Ahrimanic activity would have it, we're stuck with him. He has certainly stimulated thinking to a high edge around the world.

The only way I would soften the above opinion would be if I knew the person and understood the roots of their opinion. Those roots might run as deeply as the soul who holds them. In that case, knowing the soul would indeed soften my firm response. I trust you have good reason for holding such an opinion, I know I do.

Bradford

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:03 am
Subject: The hypnotic, endearing charm of the Bush's

At 09:27 20.12.2003, Bradford wrote:

The only way I would soften the above opinion would be if I knew the person and understood the roots of their opinion. Those roots might run as deeply as the soul who holds them. In that case, knowing the soul would indeed soften my firm response. I trust you have good reason for holding such an opinion, I know I do.

Perhaps she's experienced Bush's endearing charm and carisma and felt moved by the sincerity of his religious beliefs. The Dalai Llama has. She hasn't seen the same in John Ashcroft, and she agrees wholeheartedly that he's a fascist. So it must be that hypnotic charm of the Bush's - something they learned in "Skulls and Bones" maybe.

Personally, I have a perverse liking of George Gordon Liddy, my favorite fascist. We all have our skeletons. I've decided to put mine on display, however; that's why there are so many skulls on my website.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The hypnotic, endearing charm of the Bush's

Tarjei
So it must be that hypnotic charm of the Bush's - something they learned in "Skulls and Bones" maybe.

Hi Tarjei,

Yeah I was charmed by President Reagan. And you should see the streets of California lined with all the homeless mentally challenged people living on them. Absolutely a disgrace. Yet, when he talked and I saw him with the 'one for the gipper' salutation and tears in his eyes as he said 'God bless America' I had those same tears. He just touched something deep within me. And I have always felt that he was the way to get Bush Senior in office.

I have no doubt this Mr. Bush has very strong convictions and I admire that in a person even when the views are not my own. I admired McClintock for the fact he said what he believed and really meant it. I did not detect any liar in him only a man who's life has unfolded differently than mine and I could respect where we come up different. I have had many conversations with Republican men who feel as strongly as he does. Possibly if Bush did not have the ready made entourage he does he would be more assessible to the rest of the world even if they differed. His upholding the strong arm approach of his cohorts has backfired. I always felt Powell was his saving grace and I still do even though I am unhappy with Powells unwilling to push it a little further with the neocons in the room. He is the one man who allows the president some room to move to the center in a sense.

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:39 am
Subject: Christ and politics

At 06:31 20.12.2003, Bradford wrote:

It takes a mature human being to occupy the White House or at least someone who appears that way to the fundamentalistic traitors of the Christ Impulse.

Every president, monarch, junta, prime minister, chairman or any other state leader is, through the virtue of his or her chosen profession, a traitor to the Christ Impulse. Some are traitors to a much greater degree than other, of course, but there is no such thing as Christian politics or Christian armies or Christian prison wardens or Christian police forces.

RS mentioned in one of his lectures I can't recall the reference to, that there is an irreconcilable enmity between "the Kingdom of Heaven" proclaimed by the Christ on the one hand, and the element represented by the Caesar and the Roman soldiers on the other. An irreconcilable enmity!

Any mixing of the Christ Impulse, which is representatove of a Being Who has nothing EXCEPT unconditional love for all creatures - yes, ALL creatures - with violence par excellance through politics, armies, governments, courts, punishments, invasions, bombings, law enforcement, etc. is nothing less than a pollution of the Christ Impulse by blending it with ahrimanic elements.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
- John 14:30

The prince of this world, Ahriman, has nothing in Christ. Absolutely nothing! We, as humans, carry them both within ourselves, but it's important for us to learn to distinguish between them.

It is our task to capture the intellect from Ahriman, the gift he was brought into our evolution in order to bestow upon us, and resist his temptations. One of these temptations is might, power, politics.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless F22 as doves.
- Matthew 10:16

Harmless doves don't talk about world armies interfering wherever they see fit, leaving dissidents no place to hide and making them easy to wipe out with advanced technology by claiming they are terrorists. In the name of Christ? Come on...

Personally, I would like to be a dissident with somewhere to hide. The first Christians did. And the United States is the reincarnation of the Roman Empire. That's why Hollywood has always made such excellent movies about old Rome.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Joel Wendt
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:27 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Christ and politics

Dear Tarjei,

If everything is so absolutely black and white, as you describe below, what did Christ mean when he said:

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are Gods." (Matthew 22:21).

warm regards,
joel

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:41 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Christ and politics

At 19:27 21.12.2003, Joel wrote:

If everything is so absolutely black and white, as you describe below, what did Christ mean when he said:

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are Gods." (Matthew 22:21).

He was talking about money. The coin belongs to the emperor because it bears his name. The economy is Ahriman's domain, just like politics are his domain. The difference between the human being and the coin is that the human being is not the property of the emperor. The clergy has abused the verse you quote above for many centuries in order to force people to obey the state, Caesar. But that is a false Christianity, the Christianity of Sorath, who had tremendous influence through the Roman Catholic Church (as well as through Islam).

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:41 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Christ and politics

Tarjei
He was talking about money. The coin belongs to the emperor because it bears his name. The economy is Ahriman's domain, just like politics are his domain.

Hi Tarjei,

You have just reminded me of what I wanted to share when you mentioned the 'bleeding heart liberal' comment a few days back. And it is that the Religious Right hold that we should give unto Ceasar his due. It is completely separate than what they feel their duty to Christ is. They actually separate these things in such a manner that it gets them off the hook when they make such comments like 'no free lunch' and 'bleeding heart liberal'.

I remember the first time I heard someone say this to me. I was shocked but then came the next thought which was that only homeowners should have the right to vote. And this is the hardcore base of the Religious Right. They think only they know how to run things right. They leave no room for discussion such as we are having here. The right answer is already known and they need not take anything else into consideration unless it is from their own relgious right political base.

Dottie

Tarjei wrote:
The difference between the human being and the coin is that the human being is not the property of the emperor. The clergy has abused the verse you quote above for many centuries in order to force people to obey the state, Caesar. But that is a false Christianity, the Christianity of Sorath, who had tremendous influence through the Roman Catholic Church (as well as through Islam).

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

Paulina wrote:
So easy to criticize and find fault, quite another thing to rise to one's destiny and pay the piper, as Bush has done since 9-11.

Dear Paulina,

When we went to Afghanistan I could understand. When we started to pay the warlords to help us, we once again pulled the same mistake we did 20 years ago with Bin Laden and 20 years ago to Sadam: utilizing murderers to help us achieve our goal of holding back a hated enemies, Russia and Iran. I wish we could have sistematically taken out the main cats but no we killed and maimed so many innocent people because we had no frieken morality or respect for others lives other than our own.

We clearly went to Iraq on a lie. There is no way about it. Yes, of course they have weapons I don't doubt it. Were they ready to use them on us, were they ready to include Bin Laden in on their secrets; No, they were not on both questions. Were they even close to an immenant threat? No they were not.

Now, we have a mess. Bin Laden is free and his cohorts are happy to see that Sadam is taken out of the picture as are the Shiites. WE have set that country back I don't know how many years. Are we safer today you can bet your bottom dollar we are not. Anything can happen right now anywhere in this country and I believe that is because our President took the ego route they were hoping for. Afghanistan needed to be taken care of and the simmering boiling pots across the near east. These things were not done and we are in an even greater danger than we were at any point in our history. Our stupid arrogant bombings will show us to the mushroom cloud once again. Of that I have no doubt yet keep praying to avert this if it can be averted.

It is not easy for me to berate President Bush as I trust everything is for a reason, however I believe our part of the bargain is to rise and say never again will such small minded arrogant buffoons be allowed to swindle the people into believing something that has such grave affects for the rest of the world for all time. We are in grave danger because our small minded president and his talking men have no clue what peace love and brotherhood are all about.

I find it very interesting that the people who were arrested from Cuba, American soldiers, were Islamics? I find Rumsfield and his crew to be the best educated racists in the land today. These are people who think we don't know better so they have to lie about grave matters for they know they know better than we. They do not. They only know hate and have love for ones own people. They know nothing of Christ for if they did we would not be playing the cards they have dealt us. Now the world will shake and not because of the Towers rather for the small minded men who only knew how to make deals with the devils of the world. They went to the land of the Mothers and now we will have Hell to pay. Literally.

Iraq's women are in fear for their lives in a way that never existed when Sadam was in the lead. They were the most educated group within the Middle Eastern Region. Women served in their governments in a way that does not exist anywhere in the Middle East except Iraq. And we invade Iraq for what? Wanna talk about sadistic leaders lets look to many who govern the countries of Africa. Why are those things allowed to go on along with other far worse middle eastern countries? Why?

I can not stand the way they lie and play on the fears of my fellow man. I can not stand that they took my flag away. I can not stand that they have divided this country over the last ten years in such a way that paved the road for dissenters to be called traitors to the country they live in.

Paulina
But, 9-11 I sat on the edge of my bed in front of the tv and said, "Thank you, God, that Bush and his team are in the White House". Still feel the same, only more so.

Dottie

And me. I was so fucking pissed. I was so pissed at the arrogant men who were sitting in that frieken white house. I saw for weeks the excalated bombings that were happening in Iraq. I saw the stupidity when they had been told it was Bin Laden they were to worry about. But no, Bush and his administration had a score to settle and settle it he did. I was stunned to see the Towers go up and stunned to hear of the other targets. Deeply touched by the brave men and women who on their last ours worked together to find a way that was sadly out of their reach. I shook every time I heard an ambulance go by. Inspired when I saw the flag on the backs of the firetrucks as tehy went about saving others or putting out fires. And then I realized the flag was no longer mine. I was someone who disagreed with the plan to go to Iraq Bush not only let America down he let the World down with his choice to go into Iraq and we shall all pay the price.

Iran has stated that they feel the current administration should be held accountable for its bastard children: Sadam and Bin Laden. And I agree. How can they with a straight face speak to us about gassing when we turned around after the fact and offered to be partners with them in the future. Iran wants it to come out regarding where Sadam got his weapons. It is a fact we are at fault and once again it is trying to rear its ugly head in the media with past accounts of 1983. This current administration is an abomination to the idea of Truth and Justice it says it serves. It is no mistake these same people find themselves in power at this time. They have failed the test once again to redeem any kind of karma they brought upon themselves from previous years. And in doing so they have failed us and the world.

Paulina
Being a student of Steiner does not automatically make one material of the presidency, in fact, it would be a deficit in these times. Think on that for a time before reacting.

Dottie

I disagree. If we had a Michaelic Steiner student we would be rocking the world right now and forging a straight path to balance through courage and wisdom. Which is why I stated that this Kucinich should meet with Tarjei and Detlef: fierce courage in the face of adversity is something I sense he lacks.

All Good Things,
Dottie

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From: eyecueco
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold wrote:

Dear Paulina,

We clearly went to Iraq on a lie.

Well, dottie, that is your take, your view, not mine. Nor do I understand how it is that you, nor anyone here would think that you can speak for the Archangel Michael!

Hello?

As for 9-11, I just happen to see that event in the same light as Pearl Harbor, an attack, and Bush as having done what needed to be done, actually what should have been done during the Gulf War, which I also fully supported. (An uncompleted task always results in some degree of negative consequences in any domain.) If not for that joke of a U.N. we could have gone in and taken Hussein out after he was driven out of Kuwait. That is what most of Iraq wanted,just as most Iranians had wished that the allied forces flying over their heads had dropped a few well placed bombs in their country and held up signs on their rooftops saying so.

And if the job of taking Saddam out had been competed then the Kurds would not have been gassed, the Marsh Arabs would have seen their waterlands drained and their people obliterated, nor would the Shi'a in the south have been ordered into the streets where napalm was dumped on them from helicopters over head and then set on fire.

Many of the mass graves being uncovered are a result of NOT going into Bagdad when we should have gone into Bagdad.

I'd personally like to see a world military force that would do most exactly what was done in Iraq in any country where there is genocide, ethnic cleansing, or the kind of atrosities that went on in Iraq.

Do I think WE went into Iraq for the people of Iraq? NO. We went into Iraq because Bush said after 9-11 he was going to take the fight to the terrorists, and he did.

All who suffer from "Bush Derangement Syndrome" seem to forget that there are sixty, I repeat SIXTY nations involved in the action in Iraq. And, isn't it odd how after the invasion of Iraq, N. Korea sat up and said, "Ok, let's talk", Syria has begun cooperating to a somewhat better extent than before, and now, just yesterday, Gadhafi said he's ready to do what it takes to come back on the international stage, and will turn in any and all WMD and or information he has (although it is true he was never a real threat when it came to WMD).

I find it really, really interesting how the average, uninformed citizen who knows nothing but what he or she can hear or read coming out of the controlled news media make such amazing, vast pronouncements about the reality of how things are in the White House and Pentagon without knowing MERD about what is being discussed behind closed doors involving intelligence and national security. And, nothing burns my buns more than the uninformed liberal who turns to spouting absolute jibberish about Jesus Christ. Wasn't he the god who said two thousand years ago that there would always be wars and rumors of war? I think he was trying to tell us something the Buddist had already figured out about the world, i.e., this planet is and always will be up to the end about conflict, not paradise. The only thing life on earth guarantees is suffering. That is the deal, take it up with the hierarchies in charge.

I don't support Bush's action in Iraq because I'm afraid I might die. I think it possiblethat I could die, and am convinced that any number of us and or our loved ones will die in another attack, because there will be more attacks in the US. This war is, as Bush said to this nation after 9-11, is a very different war, it is going to be long, protracted, and difficult. (And look for things to get much worse right at the moment around the Bagdad triangle for a while, but while you re looking, inform yourself about what is going on elsewhere in Iraq.)

You people don't seem to live in the same world I do.

The objective of the sixty nations invovled with the action in Iraq is to put in place a stabilized country with a possible chance at achieving democracy in the Mid-East in between two countries that want exactly for the US what was desired on 9-11, a destabilization of economy among western countries and their allies. The objective is not to get the US to stop supporting Israel, that is the front story. The back story, is the Wahabbi one, to make the whole world Islamic for their god. Yes, I said the World. Have you been paying attention? If not, do some home work and discover for yourself the success of an agenda that has been playing out now over several decades as Islamic fundamentalists vote themselves into power in country after country. And, while you are at it, read some scholars such as Bernard Lewis who know what they are talking about when it comes to the Mid-East.

Maybe some of you here you are willing to wear a berka and move back into the dark ages, but, I'm not, and much prefer death to living under Islamic Law!

Not me. I do not wish to live a world that is Islamic, and am willing to suffer the karma of fighting and killing to prevent it. I do not follow Mohammed. I believe in and am totally and completely committed to the Free-Will experiment of the Father-Son Stream.

Anthroposophists seem to give lip service to the 'Evolution of Consciousness', but apparently are not as willing to look under the covers to a see the cost of this grand experiment. The price is dear and it is only going to get worse before it gets better. It is not the Bushes and Blairs of the world who are to blame, they are only burdened with the karma of doing what must be done if western civilization is to continue. We are only half way down the Consciousness Soul path and what is being played out in the world at this point is most exactly what we were told by St. John(LAZARUS/JOHN) would happen as human kind struggles with the causes and circumstances of developing at this stage of awareness.The real war is going on behind the scenes spiritually in the battle raging over who is going to win earth and man.

So many take up Steiner and or the esoteric and immediately desire to make the world into a new Eden, well, they aren't reading the fine print. If intelligent, well-meaning souls want to stay petulant children who think at this immature stage of development that they have all the answers, I can't help them, and this point. I don't really care; not my karma. I just know that from what little I have studied I realize enough NOT to rant and rage and fire off daily spiritual arrows of hatred about people - not Bush, not the Clinton(who I cannot stand), not Hitler, nor even Hussein, who I only pity. I could sit here and write A litany of personal concerns about Bush decisions on any number of issues, but, not about his decision to go into Iraq. Everyone is free to see world events as they wish, but, I draw my own conclusions from something other than the controlled news.

Steiner told Walter Johannes Stein to study the historical cycles of Trithemius von Spondheim in order to understand what was coming toward humanity in the near future, so I studied the historical cycles of Trithemius von Spondheim.

I also I studied the conclusions Walter Johannes Stein came to when predicting a climactic battle between East and West that was to come around in 2000 to 2001, and I read with grave concern the warning Stein gave of what will come about if the WEST should lose this climactic battle.

Those with 'Bush Derangement Syndrome' can blame secret organizations such as Skull and Bones, and rumored secret lodges around the world. Ok, fine with me. I look pefer to look back to the historical record which tells me what so often comes about when St. Michael is Time Regent.

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:52 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

Dottie:

We clearly went to Iraq on a lie.

Paulina
Well, dottie, that is your take, your view, not mine. Nor do I understand how it is that you, nor anyone here would think that you can speak for the Archangel Michael!
=

Dear Paulina,

It seems to me that you mostly think your way is the right way. As if because we do not agree with you we are all idiots and stuck in the middle ages. Reminds me of the rightwing that inhabits our Whitehouse at the present time. Fear prevails. I have to say it is a most egotistical ignorant standing the one you have taken up in making others wrong. Can you not just have a conversation about your views without character assassinations of the kind with Bradford. You castigate Bradford as if only your understanding and work of Michael are the real McCoy and the rest imposters. You do not allow others their opinions without denigrating them in the same manner the Bush administration does. You are entititled to your opinion and hard work as much as and not more than anyone else. You do not know Michael anymore than many of his soldiers on this list. You do not for if you did you would recognize your Michaelic brothers and sisters. And you do not.

Bush and company brought this upon us 20 years ago. Do you not see that or are you committed to the idea we did not arm those bastards to begin with? It is a written history proven to be correct by each new days revelation being put forth by former CIA Agents and military men. How can one ignore this and claim its all propogaganda? How convienent for those who so long for war and to dissavow others the right to live they way they wish to. And now just wait to see what happens with Libia. How do you think we bought them off? Bastards is the only name I can think of for them and what they are sowing for the rest of our worlds.

Mr. Bush has lied from the very first days of office. I saw it in his debates with Gore. I saw the liar in him, I saw the wink wink racism that lives within him and his buds and the fuzzy math. When he took office I had to trust the moment. I watched this man lie about his agenda I watched him lie about clean water, the epa act, the aids act. I watched him say one thing and turn around and do another. I watched him give back the money to his rich friends while the rest of the country had to deal with cuts of an unbearable cost to the mentally challenged, schools and protective course. I watched him say he was giving money 2 million to the Aids foundation while not telling about the 75 million in cuts he secretly made. I watched him put a strangle hold on all scientific ideas that he did not agree with. I watched him try to put fear into women so choosing abortion that it was linked to cancer. I watched him systematically get rid of the Forest initiatives by firing long time career workers. I had come to a point that I could not tell when he was telling the truth and when he was not. And then I had to decide that if I could not tell I had to not give him the benefit of the doubt. He has no vision past his nose he lives only for today and not for tomorrow. He went one by one to destroy all the peacefull visions we were bringing to bear upon our nation and our world. And Clinton would kick his butt in a new election. Absolutely leave him in the mud.

We can have different opinion but I am tired of watching you tear others down to prove yours. Can you not prove it another way? It feels like it is all emotion and no common sense. And not because it does not add up to my opinion rather because of the manner in which you choose to show it. YOu go against the non freedom thinking Islamist and do not see the Bush clans want to stifle us all and make us think like them. Can you truly not see they are trying to get this country to walk lock stock and barrel down the plank of the Republican party agenda. And if we do not we are terrorists and traitors to our own country. Sounds a little how Islam is made to sound here on this list at times.

Sincerely,
Dottie

p.s. In regards to Michael I know of him and have seen him. You do not have the bottom line of where he stands within us and without irregardless of your own personal Michael experiences. You do not.

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:15 pm
Subject: Re: Kucinich

Paulina wrote:
All who suffer from "Bush Derangement Syndrome" seem to forget that there are sixty, I repeat SIXTY nations involved in the action in Iraq.

Hi Paulina,

You must be kidding? Have you read what we did to get those sixy mostly unheard of nations that joined us? We bought them with our tax payer money. And what do you think we bought in Libya? Just imagine what deal we made there. I will see that one through just as I saw the October Suprised when it first occurred on page 23 next to some advertisement in a news paper. I never forgot it. And now I will remember this day what we have begun so I can recognize it when it blows up in our faces as Iraq and Afghanistan have. Have you read the list after the first six nations that joined us? Have you read what they got in return?

Paulina
And, isn't it odd how after the invasion of Iraq, N. Korea sat up and said, "Ok, let's talk",

Dottie

No, they pulled the bluff of this ignorant administration by telling the media before hand that they indeed did have weapons. The stupidity of Bush to call 3 nations an axil of evil before the world. Those nations are better prepared today to handle an invasion than they would have been had it not been for Bush. N. Korea talked to make it clear the only thing they would accept is a signed treaty stating that America would not attack. The underground is alive and kicking preparing itself for a future payback. Have no doubt. They know the Bush administration is going for the Gold. And they will be denied.

Paulina
Syria has begun cooperating to a somewhat better extent than before, and now, just yesterday, Gadhafi said he's ready to do what it takes to come back on the international stage, and will turn in any and all WMD and or information he has (although it is true he was never a real threat when it came to WMD).

Dottie

Can you not see the road this Bush has taken us down? Really. Syria and the whole middle east will bide their time to get Bush off their backs. WE have bred such hatred against Americans and Christ it is unbelievable to me that one can not see this part of the bargain. We will never be safe again. Just imagine if we had taken a different road than the one chosen for us by Bush. WE would have been in a league of nations holding together for the bottom line. Now, we can not be trusted. For it is known if and whenever we elect a Republican President the world will take a turn for the worst, because Republicans live in a very small world of me myself and I. Their agenda is clear. They hate the United Nations with a passion. They hate to be held accountable to a world body or anyone other than themselves.

Paulina
The only thing life on earth guarantees is suffering. That is the deal, take it up with the hierarchies in charge.

Dottie

I disagree. See, it looks like suffering but when one takes on Sophia the suffering is actually noticed as nothing and most probably as not noticed at all except in passing. It is not suffering. It is living and what a joy for then you can really do the ChristSophia work without any attachments to ones own personal condition; it becomes about being of service to the One hence the All.

Paulina
The back story, is the Wahabbi one, to make the whole world Islamic for their god. Yes, I said the World.

Dottie

Not really. They wanted the United States out of their frieken business. The wars on their lands due to fighting the Russians and then Iran and the thousands upon thousands of innocents killed. We are always great about bringing war to other peoples countries. I personally think it is a twisted Christian thing meeting a twisted Islamic thing.

Paulina
I do not wish to live a world that is Islamic, and am willing to suffer the karma of fighting and killing to prevent it. I do not follow Mohammed. I believe in and am totally and completely committed to the Free- Will experiment of the Father-Son Stream.

Dottie

Ah, this is what I came back for. You are missing a very important part of the Free Will experiment and your kind of thought runs along side a very similar Islamic stream. You are missing the Mother-Daughter for she is very involved in this FreeWill experiment as well. This is what is missing in this statement. She is sick of her people killing one another absolutly sick. And She will strike with a vengeance to stop it. A vengeance have no doubt. We should know better. We really should.

Sincerely,
Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:10 am
Subject: White House, Pentagon, Iraq - and God

At 05:39 20.12.2003, Paulina wrote:

So easy to criticize and find fault, quite another thing to rise to one's destiny and pay the piper, as Bush has done since 9-11. I was his worst critic when he went into the Oval office, would not even keep the television on the same channel if his face appeared, was convinced he was illiterate, coudl not read, still feel he has some kind of LDA speech-wise. But, 9-11 I sat on the edge of my bed in front of the tv and said, "Thank you, God, that Bush and his team are in the White House". Still feel the same, only more so.

Dear Paulina, this reminds me of the 1980's when Jerry Falwell kept talking about God having put Ronald Reagan in the White House. You know, immediately after 9-11, I was in shock like everybody else, and when the question was raised about George W. Bush and what we should make of that, I said give the guy a chance and a vote of confidence and the benefit of the doubt and all that - in spite of my serious misgivings about him from his governor days elaborated at http://www.uncletaz.com/bush/ - and I pointed out some statements of his that promised to be redeeming and mitigating. And then I expressed my serious doubts and apprehensions about the man, and you said get a grip because I was right the first time, and I said thank you Paulina, because I was confused.

Perhaps I'm still confused. Perhaps I feel wiser and more certain about Bush being bad news for America and for the world because I've been misinformed through negative media propaganda. Perhaps I'm being fed disinformation, I don't know. But the information I'm getting, true or false, doesn't look good for the Bush'es; quite the contrary.

Let me start with the latest: Steve Croft from "60 Minutes" in Baghdad:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/04/60minutes/main586841.shtml

The U.S. had promised self-rule and swift justice for members of Saddam's Ba'ath Party. Instead, the Ba'athists were actually reinstated back into government. People opposing this outrageous U.S. policy have been arrested and held for several months without trial, being denied visits by attorney, family, and media. American authorities refuse to comment the situation to "60 Minutes."

Think about it. They invaded Iraq because their weapons were a threat to the West. Before the invasion was completed, the major motive was changed to the liberation of the oppressed Iraqi people; a humanitarian, self-sacrificing act of love? Why not Burma and Zimbabwe as well? No oil? Well, the dangerous weapons weren't found, but they must have known that, because why else would they have started all that propaganda about liberation and humanitarianism and being benevolent angels to the Iraqi people and so on even before they began the ill-fated search?

This question of oil reminds me of a French documentary that was thrown into the stupid TV-face of confused, never-know-what-to-think Yours Truly. As it turns out, George Bush Sr. invested a lot of money in Kuwaiti oil back in the good old days, and he made millions on it. (And this is where God comes into the picture, because nobody else knows how many millions we're talking about here.) And according to another exciting piece from "60 Minutes" - the brave old media veterans who don't shy away from asking embarrassing questions to whomsoever they please - 9-11 could have been prevented if the CIA had been allowed to do its job in Saudi Arabia. But they were stopped by the U.S. administration from doing their job there. Why? Because "friends don't spy on friends." What friends are we talking about here? Well, as it turns out, George Bush Sr. has been doing some lucrative business deals with Osama bin Laden's brother in Saudi Arabia. That's the business they didn't want the CIA to dig its nose into too deeply, even though it MIGHT have prevented the WTC calamity.

Apart from the fact that this entire mess with Iraq, Kuwait, and the Saudis resembles more and more a private war between the Bush clan and their Arab counterparts - according to the French report, every member of the current administration may have oil funds stashed away; the task is to trace the money - apart from all this, 9-11 has been so lucrative for the Pentagon, which has been given almost a free hand with emergency legislation in the name of Homeland Security that erodes civil rights and the U.S. constitution. The Pentagon has been running U.S. foreign policy ever since 9-11, and its deadly shadow is felt in domestic politics as well. Homeland security, fright and fear and trust us so nothing happens to you. Trust God and the White house, not necessarily in that order.

In other words, in spite of the fact that the Pentagon was directly hit by one of the hijacked planes on 9-11, or precisely because of it, 9-11 has been a true blessing to the Pentagon - a blessing not in the Christian sense, but in the sense the Romans would feel about Mars and Jupiter in a situation like this. The hour of the Beast had finally arrived, because don't forget that the Pentagon is undoubtedly an indispensible tool for Sorat, the Sun Demon.

It makes sense that all the White House people have oil money stashed away, because like Lawrence Ferlinghetti points out, many of them are crooks from the good old days of Tricky Dick and Watergate.

So what does any of this have to do with thanking God for having Bush in the White House? Seriously, it must mean that the White House is overflowing with love, glowing like a sun. It's white, and it's always beautifully lit up, so perhaps God is there. But in that case, the White house would have no power and no wisdom, only lots of love:

The all-encompassing attribute of the Godhead is not omnipotence, neither is it omniscience, but it is love - the attribute in respect of which no enhancement is possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is born as it were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love. God is pure love, not supreme wisdom, not supreme might."

Love and its Meaning in the World, Zurich, 17th December, 1912 (Vol. 143)

So if I may be so bold, shouldn't we be thankful to Lucifer and Ahriman instead? It just doesn't feel right to thank Christ for the CIA and all that. And when I look at Bush on TV, I don't feel this love and compassion and the light of the Sun straight from the heart shining at me and lighting up my living room that I would have felt if he were truly put there by God, by the Elohim of the Sun. Perhaps he was put there by somebody on the Sun, but that must have been Sorat, no?

Anyway what are they doing to those prisoners on Cuba? Torturing them to death? Should we thank God for that too?

And last but not least: In his youth, George Bush Sr. was recruited to a secret society called "The Skulls", and George W. Bush Jr. is called by Sutton a "third generation Bonesman" (member of "Skulls and Bones")

They get them while they're young and mold them early. These secret societies seem to be under the influence of hidden organizations, those centers of the West that RS was talking about. So that's where "the New World Order" is coming from.

Seriously, if we are to thank higher powers for who is calling the shots in the White House and what is happening there, I would leave Christ out of it.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

Pauline wrote:

As for 9-11, I just happen to see that event in the same light as Pearl Harbor, an attack, and Bush as having done what needed to be done, actually what should have been done during the Gulf War, which I also fully supported. (An uncompleted task always results in some degree of negative consequences in any domain.)

Exactly, you see this in the same light - it was the same "collateral damage!" It was permitted to happen purposefully by Roosevelt:

And by the way, this is not an isolated reference point - there are many other books and other sources that have uncovered the same thing. Do the research - not the knee-jerk response to what you were brought up to believe!!!

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

 

PEARL HARBOR
MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES

"...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." ARMY BOARD, 1944

President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to sucker Hitler to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.

FDR blinded the commanders at Pearl Harbor and set them up by -

denying intelligence to Hawaii (HI)
on Nov 27, misleading the commanders into thinking negotiations with Japan were continuing to prevent them from realizing the war was on
having false information sent to HI about the location of the Japanese carrier fleet.

BACKGROUND
1904 - The Japanese destroyed the Russian navy in a surprise attack in undeclared war.
1932 - In The Grand Joint Army Navy Exercises the attacker, Admiral Yarnell, attacked with 152 planes a half-hour before dawn 40 miles NE of Kahuku Point and caught the defenders of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. It was a Sunday.
1938 - Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born airstrike from the USS Saratoga successfully against Pearl Harbor in another exercise.
1940 - FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.
7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished.
11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes.
11 February 1941 - FDR proposed sacrificing 6 cruisers and 2 carriers at Manila to get into war. Navy Chief Stark objected: "I have previously opposed this and you have concurred as to its unwisdom. Particularly do I recall your remark in a previous conference when Mr. Hull suggested (more forces to Manila) and the question arose as to getting them out and your 100% reply, from my standpoint, was that you might not mind losing one or two cruisers, but that you
did not want to take a chance on losing 5 or 6." (Charles Beard PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT AND THE COMING OF WAR 1941, p 424)
March 1941 - FDR sold munitions and convoyed them to belligerents in Europe -- both acts of war and both violations of international law -- the Lend-Lease Act.
23 Jun 1941 - Advisor Harold Ickes wrote FDR a memo the day after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, "There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we
would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia." FDR was pleased with Admiral Richmond Turner's report read July 22: "It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war." On July 24 FDR told the Volunteer Participation Committee, "If we had cut off the oil off, they probably would have gone down to the Dutch East Indies a year ago, and you would have had war." The next day FDR froze all Japanese assets in US cutting off their main supply of oil and forcing them into war with the US. Intelligence information was withheld from Hawaii from this point forward.
14 August - At the Atlantic Conference, Churchill noted the "astonishing depth of Roosevelt's intense desire for war." Churchill cabled his cabinet "(FDR) obviously was very determined that they should come in."
18 October - diary entry by Secretary of Interior Harold Ickes: "For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan."

more on the web page & others

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

Paulina wrote:

I find it really, really interesting how the average, uninformed citizen who knows nothing but what he or she can hear or read coming out of the controlled news media make such amazing, vast pronouncements about the reality of how things are in the White House and Pentagon without knowing MERD about what is being discussed behind closed doors involving intelligence and national security.

All that you have been saying is what is put out by the "controlled media" and those who are saying otherwise are backing it up with miles of documented research. If you were open minded enough to want to know, I can give you a long list of websites and books. The people who are putting out this information (while they still can) know a great deal more than the average person about what is going on behind closed doors AND they are pointing out things that are right out there for all to see, but we refuse to look.

...................................................................................................................................

From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:19 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

Paulina wrote:

I'd personally like to see a world military force that would do most exactly what was done in Iraq in any country where there is genocide, ethnic cleansing, or the kind of atrosities that went on in Iraq.

Then this "world force" would have to start in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!

...................................................................................................................................

From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

Paulina wrote:

It is not the Bushes and Blairs of the world who are to blame, they are only burdened with the karma of doing what must be done if western civilization is to continue.

WHAT "western civilization"??? I agree - they must do these things if the "western civilization" that has acted so long out of the power vortex of the Illuminati is to continue!

Paulina wrote:

It is not the Bushes and Blairs of the world who are to blame, they are only burdened with the karma of doing what must be done if western civilization is to continue.

************

Matthew 26:20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Matthew 26:21
And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Matthew 26:22
And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

Matthew 26:23
And he answered and said, He that dippeth [his] hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Matthew 26:25
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Paulina wrote:

We are only half way down the Consciousness Soul path and what is being played out in the world at this point is most exactly what we were told by St. John(LAZARUS/JOHN) would happen as human kind struggles with the causes and circumstances of developing at this stage of awareness.The real war is going on behind the scenes spiritually in the battle raging over who is going to win earth and man.

******************
CHRIST will never win the battle over earth and man through WAR!!!

So the battle that you are describing does not involve HIM.

...................................................................................................................................

From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:31 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/
***************
The scan of the actual memo is on the website:
*****************

The McCollum Memo:
The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor

On October 7, 1940, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum of the Office of Naval Intelligence submitted a memo to Navy Captains Walter Anderson and Dudley Knox (whose endorsement is included in the following scans). Captains Anderson and Knox were two of President Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors.

The memo, scanned below, detailed an 8 step plan to provoke Japan into attacking the United States. President Roosevelt, over the course of 1941, implemented all 8 of the recommendations contained in the McCollum memo. Following the eighth provocation, Japan attacked. The public was told that it was a complete surprise, an "intelligence failure", and America entered World War Two.

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Note the highlighted portion

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This memo, which proves that the government of the United States desired to lure Japan into an attack, was declassified in 1994. It took fifty years for the truth about Pearl Harbor to be revealed. Will we have to wait that long for the truth of 9-11 to come out?

More about the Pearl Harbor Deception is at Pearl Harbor: Mother of all conspiracies (at least until 9/11)

THE BONES OF STATION H The remains of the radio intercept station on Oahu that picked up Admiral Yamamoto's order for the attack.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The memo

0p-16-F-2 ON1 7 October 1940
Memorandum for the Director

Subject: Estimate of the Situation in the Pacific and Recommendations for Action by the United States.

1. The United States today finds herself confronted by a hostile Germany and Italy in Europe and by an equally hostile Japan in the Orient. Russia, the great land link between these two groups of hostile powers, is at present neutral, but in all probability favorably inclined towards the Axis powers, and her favorable attitude towards these powers may be expected to increase in direct proportion to increasing success in their prosecution of the war in Europe. Germany and Italy have been successful in war on the continent of Europe and all of Europe is either under their military control or has been forced into subservience. Only the British Empire is actively opposing by war the growing world dominance of Germany and Italy and their satellites.

2. The United States at first remained coolly aloof from the conflict in Europe and there is considerable evidence to support the view that Germany and Italy attempted by every method within their power to foster a continuation of American indifference to the outcome of the struggle in Europe. Paradoxically, every success of German and Italian arms has led to further increases in United States sympathy for and material support of the British Empire, until at the present time the United States government stands committed to a policy of rendering every support short of war the changes rapidly increasing that the United States will become a full fledged ally of the British Empire in the very near future. The final failure of German and Italian diplomacy to keep the United States in the role of a disinterested spectator has forced them to adopt the policy of developing threats to U.S. security in other spheres of the world, notably by the threat of revolutions in South and Central America by Axis-dominated groups and by the stimulation of Japan to further aggressions and threats in the Far East in the hope that by these mean the Unites States would become so confused in thought and fearful of her own immediate security as to cause her to become so preoccupied in purely defensive preparations as to virtually preclude U.S. aid to Great Britain in any form. As a result of this policy, Germany and Italy have lately concluded a military alliance with Japan directed against the United States If the published terms of this treaty and the pointed utterances of German, Italian and Japanese leaders can be believed, and there seems no ground on which to doubt either, the three totalitarian powers agree to make war on the United States, should she come to the assistance of England, or should she attempt to forcibly interfere with Japan's aims in the Orient and,
[2]
furthermore, Germany and Italy expressly reserve the right to determine whether American aid to Britain, short of war, is a cause for war or not after they have succeeded in defeating England. In other words, after England has been disposed of her enemies will decide whether or not to immediately proceed with an attack on the United States. Due to geographic conditions, neither Germany nor Italy are in a position to offer any material aid to Japan. Japan, on the contrary, can be of much help to both Germany and Italy by threatening and possibly even attacking British dominions and supply routes from Australia, India and the Dutch East Indies, thus materially weakening Britain's position in opposition to the Axis powers in Europe. In exchange for this service, Japan receives a free hand to seize all of Asia that she can find it possible to grab, with the added promise that Germany and Italy will do all in their power to keep U.S. attention so attracted as to prevent the United States from taking positive aggressive action against Japan. Here again we have another example of the Axis-Japanese diplomacy which is aimed at keeping American power immobilized, and by threats and alarms to so confuse American thought as to preclude prompt decisive action by the United States in either sphere of action. It cannot be emphasized to strongly that the last thing desired by either the Axis powers in Europe or by Japan in the Far East is prompt, warlike action by the United States in either theatre of operations.

3. An examination of the situation in Europe leads to the conclusion that there is little that we can do now, immediately to help Britain that is not already being done. We have no trained army to send to the assistance of England, nor will we have for at least a year. We are now trying to increase the flow of materials to England and to bolster the defense of England in every practicable way and this aid will undoubtedly be increased. On the other hand, there is little that Germany or Italy can do against us as long as England continues in the war and her navy maintains control of the Atlantic. The one danger to our position lies in the possible early defeat of the British Empire with the British Fleet falling intact into the hands of the Axis powers. The possibility of such an event occurring would be materially lessened were we actually allied in war with the British or at the very least were taking active measures to relieve the pressure on Britain in other spheres of action. To sum up: the threat to our security in the Atlantic remains small so long as the British Fleet remains dominant in that ocean and friendly to the United States.

4. In the Pacific, Japan by virtue of her alliance with Germany and Italy is a definite threat to the security of the British Empire and once the British Empire is gone the power of Japan-Germany and Italy is to be directed against the United States. A powerful land attack by Germany and Italy through the Balkans and North Africa against the Suez Canal with a Japanese threat or attack on Singapore would have very serious results for the British Empire. Could Japan be diverted or neutralized, the fruits of a successful attack on the Suez Canal could not be as far reaching and beneficial to the Axis powers as if such a success was also accompanied by the virtual elimination of British sea power from the Indian Ocean, thus
[3]
opening up a European supply route for Japan and a sea route for Eastern raw materials to reach Germany and Italy, Japan must be diverted if the British and American ( ) blockade of Europe and possibly Japan (?) is to remain even partially in effect.

5. While as pointed out in Paragraph (3) there is little that the United States can do to immediately retrieve the situation in Europe, the United States is able to effectively nullify Japanese aggressive action, and do it without lessening U.S. material assistance to Great Britain.

6. An examination of Japan's present position as opposed to the United States reveals a situation as follows:

Advantages Disadvantages

1. Geographically strong position 1. A million and a half men of Japanese Islands. engaged in an exhausting war on the Asiatic Continent.
2. A highly centralized strong 2. Domestic economy and food capable government. supply severely straightened.

3. Rigid control of economy on 3. A serious lack of sources of a war basis. raw materials for war. Notably oil, iron and cotton.
4. A people inured to hardship 4. Totally cut off from supplies and war. from Europe.
5. A powerful army. 5. Dependent upon distant overseas routes for essential supplies.
6. A skillful navy about 2/3 6. Incapable of increasing the strength of the U.S. Navy. manufacture and supply of war materials without free access to U.S. or European markets.
7. Some stocks of raw materials. 7. Major cities and industrial centers extremely vulnerable to air attack.
8. Weather until April rendering direct sea operations in the vicinity of Japan difficult.

7. In the Pacific the United States possesses a very strong defensive position and a navy and naval air force at present in that ocean capable of long distance offensive operation. There are certain other factors which at the present time are strongly in our favor, viz:

A. Philippine Islands still held by the United States.
B. Friendly and possibly allied government in control of the Dutch East Indies.
C. British still hold Hong Kong and Singapore and are favorable to us.
D. Important Chinese armies are still in the field in China against Japan.
E. A small U.S. Naval Force capable of seriously threatening Japan's southern supply routes
[4]
already in the theatre of operations.
F. A considerable Dutch naval force is in the Orient that would be of value if allied to U.S.

8. A consideration of the foregoing leads to the conclusion that prompt aggressive naval action against Japan by the United States would render Japan incapable of affording any help to Germany and Italy in their attack on England and that Japan itself would be faced with a situation in which her navy could be forced to fight on most unfavorable terms or accept fairly early collapse of the country through the force of blockade. A prompt and early declaration of war after entering into suitable arrangements with England and Holland, would be most effective in bringing about the early collapse of Japan and thus eliminating our enemy in the pacific before Germany and Italy could strike at us effectively. Furthermore, elimination of Japan must surely strengthen Britain's position against Germany and Italy and, in addition, such action would increase the confidence and support of all nations who tend to be friendly towards us.

9. It is not believed that in the present state of political opinion the United States government is capable of declaring war against Japan without more ado; and it is barely possible that vigorous action on our part might lead the Japanese to modify their attitude. Therefore, the following course of action is suggested:

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies.
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang-Kai-Shek.
D. Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.
F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet now in the Pacific in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.
H. Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire.

10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better. At all events we must be fully prepared to accept the threat of war.

A. H. McCollum
CC-0p-16
0p-16-F
File
[5]
0p-16-F-2 ON1 7 October 1940
Summary
1. The United States is faced by a hostile combination of powers in both the Atlantic and Pacific.

2. British naval control of the Atlantic prevents hostile action against the United States in this area.

3. Japan's growing hostility presents an attempt to open sea communications between Japan and the Mediterranean by an attack on the British lines of communication in the Indian Ocean.

4. Japan must be diverted if British opposition in Europe is to remain effective.

5. The United States naval forces now in the Pacific are capable of so containing and harassing Japan as to nullify her assistance to Germany and Italy.

6. It is to the interest of the United States to eliminate Japan's threat in the Pacific at the earliest opportunity by taking prompt and aggressive action against Japan.

7. In the absence of United States ability to take the political offensive, additional naval force should be sent to the orient and agreements entered into with Holland and England that would serve as an effective check against Japanese encroachments in South-eastern Asia.
[6]
Comment by Captain Knox

It is unquestionably to out general interest that Britain be not licked - just now she has a stalemate and probably cant do better. We ought to make it certain that she at least gets a stalemate. For this she will probably need from us substantial further destroyers and air reinforcements to England. We should not precipitate anything in the Orient that should hamper our ability to do this - so long as probability continues.

If England remains stable, Japan will be cautious in the Orient. Hence our assistance to England in the Atlantic is also protection to her and us in the Orient.

However, I concur in your courses of action we must be ready on both sides and probably strong enough to care for both.
D.W.K.
Re your #6: - no reason for battleships not visiting west coast in bunches.

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:33 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

http://www.liberty-tree.org/ltn/dayofdeceit.html

DAY OF DECEIT: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor
by Robert B. Stinnett

Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum, eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the only way, leading officials felt, to galvanize the reluctant American public into action.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This great question of Pearl Harbor – what did we know and when did we know it? — has been argued for years. At first, a panel created by FDR concluded that we had no advance warning and should blame only the local commanders for lack of preparedness. More recently, historians such as John Toland and Edward Beech have concluded that some intelligence was intercepted. Finally, just months ago, the Senate voted to exonerate Hawaii commanders Admiral Kimmel and Lt. General Short, after the Pentagon officially declared that blame should be "broadly shared." But no investigator has ever been able to prove that foreknowledge of the attack existed at the highest levels.

Until now. After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information - including a map of bombing targets - beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.

The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels — on FDR's desk — America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence.

Yet even having found what he calls the "terrible truth," Stinnett is still inclined to forgive. "I sympathize with the agonizing dilemma faced by President Roosevelt," he writes. "He was forced to find circuitous means to persuade an isolationist America to join in a fight for freedom. …It is easier to take a critical view of this policy a half century removed than to understand fully what went on in Roosevelt's mind in the year prior to Pearl Harbor."

Day of Deceit is the definitive final chapter on America's greatest secret and our worst military disaster.

Robert B. Stinnett served in the United States Navy under Lieutenant George Bush from 1942 to 1946, where he earned ten battle stars and a Presidential Unit Citation. He worked as a photographer and journalist for the Oakland Tribune until 1986, after which he resigned to devote himself to this book. He is a consultant on the Pacific War for the BBC and for Asahi and NHK Television in Japan. He divides his time between Oakland and Hawaii.

"Many of us who are veterans of World War II's Pacific Theater of Operations have always suspected that the December 7, 1941, Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was deliberately provoked. A half century later, Robert Stinnett has come up with most of the smoking guns. Day of Deceit shows that the famous 'surprise' attack was no surprise to our war-minded rulers, and that the three thousand American military men killed and wounded one Sunday morning in Hawaii were, to our rulers and their present avatars, a small price to pay for that 'global empire' over which we now so ineptly preside." -- Gore Vidal

"Step by step, Stinnett goes through the prelude to war, using new documents to reveal the terrible secrets that have never before been disclosed to the public. It is disturbing that eleven presidents, including those I admired, kept the truth from the public until Stinnett's Freedom of Information Act requests finally persuaded the Navy to release the evidence." -- John Toland, Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Infamy

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:36 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

 

http://www.americanfreepress.net/12_24_02/America_Pearl_Harbored/america_pearl_harbored.html

America ‘Pearl Harbored’

Fanatical Warhawks Drafted Blueprint for Bloody U.S. World Domination Years Ago

The cabal of war fanatics advising the White House secretly planned a “transformation” of defense policy years ago, calling for war against Iraq and huge increases in military spending. A “catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor”—was seen as necessary to bring this about.

Exclusive to American Free Press

By Christopher Bollyn

The huge increases in U.S. military spending that have occurred since the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, were planned before President George W. Bush was elected by the same men who are pushing the administration’s “war on terrorism” and the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Billions of dollars in additional defense spending are but the first step in the group’s long-term plan to transform the U.S. military into a global army enforcing a terroristic and bloody Pax Americana around the world.

A neo-conservative Washington-based organization known as the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), funded by three foundations closely tied to Persian Gulf oil and weapons and defense industries, drafted the war plan for U.S. global domination through military power.

One of the organization’s documents clearly shows that Bush and his most senior cabinet members had already planned an attack on Iraq before he took power in January 2001.

The PNAC was founded in the spring of 1997 by the well-known Zionist neo-conservatives Robert Kagan and William Kristol of The Weekly Standard.

The PNAC is part of the New Citizenship Project, whose chairman is also William Kristol, and is described as “a non-profit, educational organization whose goal is to promote American global leadership.”

Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, and Paul Wolfowitz signed a Statement of Principles of the PNAC on June 3, 1997, along with many of the other current members of Bush’s “war cabinet.”

Wolfowitz was one of the directors of PNAC until he joined the Bush administration.

The group’s essential demand was for hefty increases in defense spending. “We need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future,” the statement’s first principle reads.

The increase in defense spending is to bring about two of the other principles: “to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values” and “to accept responsibility for America’s unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.”

A subsequent PNAC plan entitled “Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategies, Forces and Resources for a New Century,” reveals that the current members of Bush’s cabinet had already planned, before the 2000 presidential election, to take military control of the Gulf region whether Saddam Hussein is in power or not.

The 90-page PNAC document from September 2000 says: “The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.”

“Even should Saddam pass from the scene,” the plan says U.S. military bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain, despite domestic opposition in the Gulf states to the permanent stationing of U.S. troops. Iran, it says, “may well prove as large a threat to U.S. interests as Iraq has.”

A “core mission” for the transformed U.S. military is to “fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars,” according to the PNAC.

The strategic “transformation” of the U.S. military into an imperialistic force of global domination would require a huge increase in defense spending to “a minimum level of 3.5 to 3.8 percent of gross domestic product, adding $15 billion to $20 billion to total defense spending annually,” the PNAC plan said.

“The process of transformation,” the plan said, “is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event—like a new Pearl Harbor.”

American Free Press asked Christopher Maletz, assistant director of the PNAC about what was meant by the need for “a new Pearl Harbor.”

“They needed more money to up the defense budget for raises, new arms, and future capabilities,” Maletz said. “Without some disaster or catastrophic event” neither the politicians nor the military would have approved, Maletz said.

The “new Pearl Harbor,” in the form of the terror attacks of Sept. 11, provided the necessary catalyst to put the global war plan into effect. Congress quickly allocated $40 billion to fund the “war on terrorism” shortly after 9-11.

A Pentagon spokesman told AFP that $17.5 billion of that initial allocation went to defense.

The U.S. defense budget for 2002, including a $14.5 billion supplement, came to $345.7 billion, a nearly 12 percent increase over the 2001 defense budget.

Similar significant increases in defense spending are planned for 2003 (to $365 billion) and 2004 (to at least $378 billion) in line with the PNAC plan.

Veteran journalist John Pilger recently wrote about one of PNAC’s founding members, Richard Perle: “I interviewed Perle when he was advising Reagan, and when he spoke about ‘total war,’ I mistakenly dismissed him as mad,” Pilger wrote. “He recently used the term again in describing America’s ‘war on terror.’

‘No stages,’ he said. ‘This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq . . . this is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don’t try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war . . . our children will sing great songs about us years from now.’ ”

“This is a blueprint for U.S. world domination—a new world order of their making,” Tam Dalyell, British parliamentarian and critic of the war policy from the Labor Party said. “These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world.

“This is garbage from think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks,” Dalyell said, “men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war.

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From: Gisele
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:10 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

eyecueco wrote:

As for 9-11, I just happen to see that event in the same light as Pearl Harbor, an attack, and Bush as having done what needed to be done, actually what should have been done during the Gulf War, which I also fully supported.

~~~~ According to the American economist Paul Krugman ('The Great Unravelling' - Allen Lane 2003) as early as 1992 P. Wolfowitz, then Undersecretary of Defence, now Rumsfeld's deputy, wrote a document calling for intervention in Iraq. This was further elaborated in 'TheProject for the New American Century' and has now become the 'Bush Doctrine'. The events of Sept. 11 provided the pretext for this project to be put into action.~~~~

I'd personally like to see a world military force that would do most exactly what was done in Iraq in any country where there is genocide, ethnic cleansing, or the kind of atrosities that went on in Iraq.

~~~~One of the three main reasons the British and US governments gave for going to war in Iraq was: to remove a brutal and cruel regime. In the meantime, the British government is supporting the regime of Karimov of Uzbekistan, which has an atrocious human rights record, with over 6,000 political and religious prisoners, many regularly tortured. Uzbekistan is in the middle of central Asia's massive gas and oil fields, and it's a secular anti-Muslim state.~~~~

The objective of the sixty nations invovled with the action in Iraq is to put in place a stabilized country with a possible chance at achieving democracy in the Mid-East in between two countries that want exactly for the US what was desired on 9-11, a destabilization of economy among western countries and their allies. The objective is not to get the US to stop supporting Israel, that is the front story. The back story, is the Wahabbi one, to make the whole world Islamic for their god. Yes, I said the World. Have you been paying attention? If not, do some home work and discover for yourself the success of an agenda that has been playing out now over several decades as Islamic fundamentalists vote themselves into power in country after country. And, while you are at it, read some scholars such as Bernard Lewis who know what they are talking about when it comes to the Mid-East.

~~~~Steiner maintained that WW1 was caused by the materialistic aims of the Anglo-American peoples, aims linked to power, dominion and commercial interests. In these they were aided by certain secret groups (brotherhoods) which themselves had access to spiritual forces, forces antipathetic to humanity's further development. Rudolf Steiner saw through the fog of propaganda in his time and correctly perceived that the Anglo-American peoples were embarked on a project of domination that was in essence materialistic and commercial.~~~~

Anthroposophists seem to give lip service to the 'Evolution of Consciousness', but apparently are not as willing to look under the covers to a see the cost of this grand experiment. The price is dear and it is only going to get worse before it gets better. It is not the Bushes and Blairs of the world who are to blame, they are only burdened with the karma of doing what must be done if western civilization is to continue.

~~~~Steiner speaking just after the end of WW1 ('Ideas for a New Europe' - Rudolf Steiner Press 1992):

Well, the actual victor is the being of the Anglo-American peoples... this being is destined to dominate the world in the future... It will be easy to win external domination, for this will be done with the help of forces for which the winners can claim no credit. The transfer of external dominion will take place with the relentlessness of a force of nature...
Will there be a sufficient number among those impelled to assume external domination, as though from a force from outside, who feel a responsibility for inserting into this entirely external, materialistic dominion - for that is what it will be, make no mistake - an impetus for spiritual life?"

Can you see the responsibility for that 'impetus for spiritual life' anywhere near the White House? Is it in the 'Christian' convictions of those who surround Bush, is it in those associates of Cheney who got the contracts to rebuild Iraq?~~~~

Gisele

...................................................................................................................................

From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:05 pm
Subject: Response to Paulina with Correction

Paulina said re Jesus Christ:

Wasn't he the god who said two thousand years ago that there would always be wars and rumors of war?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!

This is what He said:

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:7
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8
All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matthew 24:10
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:12
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:23
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25
Behold, I have told you before.

Matthew 24:26
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Matthew 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Matthew 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:41
Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

What He said would be ALWAYS was the POOR:

Matthew 26:6
Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

Matthew 26:7
There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat].

Matthew 26:8
But when his disciples saw [it], they had indignation, saying, To what purpose [is] this waste?

Matthew 26:9
For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

Matthew 26:10
When Jesus understood [it], he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath
wrought a good work upon me.

Matthew 26:11
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Matthew 26:12
For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did [it] for my burial.

Matthew 26:13
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Daniel Hindes
Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:54 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Kucinich

As my contribution to this discussion, I shall quote no other than Rudolf Steiner:

Step Four: Freedom from prejudice. This, the fourth characteristic, sees good in everything and looks for the positive element in all things. Relevant to this is a Persian legend told of Christ Jesus. On day Christ Jesus saw a dead dog lying be the wayside; he stopped to look at the animal while those around him turned away in disgust. Then Jesus said: "What beautiful teeth the dog has!" In that hideous corpse he saw not what was ugly or evil but the beauty of the white teeth. If you can acquire this mood, you will look everywhere for the good and positive, and you will find it everywhere. This has a powerful effect on the physical and etheric bodies."

"At the Gates of Spiritual Science", London 1970, p. 111. Lecture of September 2nd, 1906 titled "Occult Development." This is the fourth of the six prerequisite exercises before beginning occult development.

Daniel Hindes

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