Bryan's Quote of the Day

From: b m
Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 10:58 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

When I read Peter S., I hear an authoritative, rather pompous man, with the right to give commands, enforce obedience, make final decisions, having power and influence over others. It's just the old Guru trick again, make your devotees feel and think that they are free."

Bryan, Feb. 02, 2004

Tarjei Straume wrote:

When I read Rudolf Steiner, I hear an authoritative, rather pompous man, with the right to give commands, enforce obedience, make final decisions, having power and influence over others. It's just the old Guru trick again, make your devotees feel and think that they are free."

- Sharon, Sep 08, 2001

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 1:25 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

The most puzzling and disturbing matter in this topic about people like Stronzenmaier (pardon Studenmaier), Dugan and their brainwashed companions is the following. If they gained the "awareness" that Steiner is a pompous charlatan and Anthrop. is a whole ball of shit why are they wasting their "preciuos" time with this matter ? Have not they got something better to do or are not they able to see themselves like the prisoners of some obscure compulsive complex of "love and hate"?

For myself: in my twenties I studied in deep Esotericism of "traditionalist gesture" like the one of Guènon and Evola and, at last, I judged it to be, as a whole, a kind of crap.

Well, I cannot imagine myself, now, strugglin' on some "Evola list" in order to "demonstrate" he is a "pompous charlatan" and so on, doesn't it ?

Andrea the Italian

----- Original Message -----
From: b m
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

When I read Peter S., I hear an authoritative, rather pompous man, with the right to give commands, enforce obedience, make final decisions, having power and influence over others. It's just the old Guru trick again, make your devotees feel and think that they are free."

Bryan, Feb. 02, 2004

Tarjei Straume wrote:

When I read Rudolf Steiner, I hear an authoritative, rather pompous man, with the right to give commands, enforce obedience, make final decisions, having power and influence over others. It's just the old Guru trick again, make your devotees feel and think that they are free."

- Sharon, Sep 08, 2001

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 3:00 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

At 10:25 03.02.2004, Andrea the Italian wrote:

The most puzzling and disturbing matter in this topic about people like Stronzenmaier (pardon Studenmaier), Dugan and their brainwashed companions is the following. If they gained the "awareness" that Steiner is a pompous charlatan and Anthrop. is a whole ball of shit why are they wasting their "preciuos" time with this matter ? Have not they got something better to do or are not they able to see themselves like the prisoners of some obscure compulsive complex of "love and hate"?

Those people have been asked that quastion many times, also by me, and they always respond by explaining the need for their crusade to continue. Otherwise, society would be duped and seduced by deceptive and creepy anthropops, and the children of unsuspecting parents who have not been warned by PLANS will be abused and their minds poisoned and their future ruined. This is why they also have a closed list called "Waldorf Survivors" consisting of people who have suffered at the hands of Waldorf teachers and administrators. They exchange Waldorf horror stories and give each other comfort and encouragement. Waldorf/Anthroposophy/Steiner, which is a racist cult, is the enemy and the perpetrator of evil, and it is PLANS' mission to rescue humanity from this moloch.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: b m
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 6:50 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

Peter S. has a talent with words, but he is less of an asset to the critics than they seem to realise. For a group which uses as one of their main arguments the allegation that Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner are "weird", having the anarchist crusader among them takes a big chunk off their credibility. The man is as weird as they come.

As to what keeps him and the other fellows there tightly embraced to Anthroposophy despite their apparent loathing of it, here goes my theory: It is a deep, unconscious and very revealing fascination with it; it is as if they are in love with Anthroposophy. Sadly, they can't have it, because they can't "get it". They are unable to understand it, to penetrate its mysteries. Therefore they feel rejected. Unable to perform in a love level, they turn to the other face of love, which is hate - in a romantic realm such as this is, the true opposite of love would be indifference. And like the fox, they mumble the grapes were green after all and they don't want them. And by the way nobody else should have them because they are dangerous - enter the green jealousy monster. It is their alleged dislike of Antroposophy that provides them with an excuse to stay close to it -thus illustrating my point that they do love it.

As it was mentioned here, they may very well come back as Anthroposophers in another life. This being the case, there's no reason for the WC'eers to despair. There's still hope. They may be able to make love to Anthroposophy one day, although in this existence they obviously lack the necessary equipment.

Bryan

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 7:44 am
Subject: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

Tks a lot,Tarjei,

I live in Italy and here, since the Waldorf orientted school are very few we have not such a kind of problem. (I have the opposite, just to pick up money in order to let my children become "waldorf-anthro addict.!!). I followed the thread in France,Netherlands ,Germany and, especially in France, I had the impression - as others have had- that there was a kind of "little masonic hands" behind the French "anti-Waldorf crusade.

On the same time, in Germany, most of the "eco-fascist =anthropop" hoaxes' campaign seems to spring from some problems insiide the German Grren Party, namely the attempt of neo-marxist wing to gain power over the ecologist wing., somewhat concerned with Steiner's teachings, mainly in Waldorf and Byofarming areas.

But what's behind the US campaign ? Is it only a spontaneous matter of social mental illness and disturbance or is something else behind ?

What is your insight about it ?

A.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tarjei Straume
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

At 10:25 03.02.2004, Andrea the Italian wrote:

The most puzzling and disturbing matter in this topic about people like Stronzenmaier (pardon Studenmaier), Dugan and their brainwashed companions is the following. If they gained the "awareness" that Steiner is a pompous charlatan and Anthrop. is a whole ball of shit why are they wasting their "preciuos" time with this matter ? Have not they got something better to do or are not they able to see themselves like the prisoners of some obscure compulsive complex of "love and hate"?

Those people have been asked that quastion many times, also by me, and they always respond by explaining the need for their crusade to continue. Otherwise, society would be duped and seduced by deceptive and creepy anthropops, and the children of unsuspecting parents who have not been warned by PLANS will be abused and their minds poisoned and their future ruined. This is why they also have a closed list called "Waldorf Survivors" consisting of people who have suffered at the hands of Waldorf teachers and administrators. They exchange Waldorf horror stories and give each other comfort and encouragement. Waldorf/Anthroposophy/Steiner, which is a racist cult, is the enemy and the perpetrator of evil, and it is PLANS' mission to rescue humanity from this moloch.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

...................................................................................................................................

From: Joel Wendt
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 8:30 pm
Subject: another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

Dear Andrea,

There is an additional way that this can be viewed. In my opinion we do a disservice to ourselves not to include this view.

Within the individual biographies of many individuals of the modern age, materialism still plays a role it is meant to play. Such individuals need the materialistic outlook because they have yet to have those experiences from which they will learn the necessary freedom from a previously dominate traditional religious view.

Materialism in this sense performs a necessary service in the development of the "I-am". In order to be free to choose the spirit, we need first to be free of our traditional and karmic links to the spirit.

When the paradigms of materialism (in whatever form, whether natural science, or secular humanism etc.) encounter the paradigms of the new mysteries, the resulting conflict creates social problems of no small significance. This is part of what we experience in the coming into existence of PLANS - that is a collusion of paradigms, with each paradigm having a valid significance in each individual biography.

The views of Dan, and Peter S. and Sharon (for example), in the general sense of their partaking of the general paradigm of materialism, are necessary to their biographies. In a like way, the manifestation of the shadow elements of the soul life (their doubles) are also a necessary part of their biographies.

We experience these excesses (their paradigms and shadow impulses) in different ways. Mostly we "defend" because we experience their efforts as "attacks". We forget to live inside their biographies, we forget to walk in their shoes, and assume because we don't like what they say that they are "wrong" and we are "right".

My view would be that our assumptions of their flaws and our correctness results from a failure on our part to understand the practice of anthroposophy.

Failing to be appropriately empathic, we then fall into "argument" taking what is essentially an intellectual soul response to what is basically a consciousness soul dilemma. We seek to convince them of their intellectual errors, and seek to bring them into conformance with our more correct views.

This mostly results from a failure within the anthroposophical movement to appreciate the social implications of the Philosophy of Freedom. In the Philosophy we are taught concerning the creation of mental representations, which if we really penetrate to what this means socially will show us that every individual today lives within such mental representations (whose meaning and significance is wholly linked to the karma of their biography). We are meant to live within this darkness (the mental representations), cut off from the spirit, until such time that we ourselves choose to find our particular way forward.

Dan, Peter S. and Sharon (to continue the example) have those mental representations that belong to their biographies, and we really have no basis (in terms of the Good) to demand their inner life be any different than it is. Each has their path to freedom, and it is not ours to insist they walk any other way than the way that they walk.

This does leave us with a dilemma, for we also know clearly the harm being done by the excesses of their shadows. What this comes down to in the end, is not so much pointing out what we believe to be the truth in contradistinction to what we see as the confusion of PLANS, but rather how to treat those whose biography results in such views and actions that are harmful to what we have come to love.

In the long run, it is my view that anthroposophists, who wish to lead people away from the errors we observe in PLANS, will do better by making the following distinction. There is a considerable difference between Dan, Peter S. and Sharon as human beings (including what manifests as their shadow nature), and what manifests in their biographies as mental representations with which we do not agree.

If we dehumanize them in any way, we do them a disservice as human beings, and fail ourselves. Dan's rule against ad hominem arguments (personal attacks) is valid in this sense.

As to "arguing" with their views, we may well do a disservice there as well, if we assume malicious intent. All of us have character flaws, and if we as anthroposophists are going to approach the situation from a "spiritual" moral view, then imagining we know the moral intentions of another human begin, based upon the fact that they disagree with our mental representations, just won't work. Difference does not mean moral wrongness.

If we believe ourselves purer in our intuitions of concepts, and then judge their mental representations as moral failings, we also miss the social meaning of the Philosophy.

Consider the various introductions to different editions of Steiner's Occult Science. Again and again he describes how he expects most who read that book to find flaws with it. He has understood that we live in a time of conflicting (individualized) mental representations, and he does not expect but a few to be ready yet to understand what he has offered. Can we do less?

Yes, horrible words are written about what we love. Does that justify us using horrible words back, describing others in dehumanizing ways? Is that an aspect of the practice of anthroposophy?

warm regards,
joel

On Tue, 2004-02-03 at 02:25, VALENTINA BRUNETTI wrote:

The most puzzling and disturbing matter in this topic about people like Stronzenmaier (pardon Studenmaier), Dugan and their brainwashed companions is the following. If they gained the "awareness" that Steiner is a pompous charlatan and Anthrop. is a whole ball of shit why are they wasting their "preciuos" time with this matter ? Have not they got something better to do or are not they able to see themselves like the prisoners of some obscure compulsive complex of "love and hate"?

For myself: in my twenties I studied in deep Esotericism of "traditionalist gesture" like the one of Guènon and Evola and, at last, I judged it to be, as a whole, a kind of crap.

Well, I cannot imagine myself, now, strugglin' on some "Evola list" in order to "demonstrate" he is a "pompous charlatan" and so on, doesn't it ?

Andrea the Italian

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 1:48 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

At 05:30 04.02.2004, Joel wrote:

Dan, Peter S. and Sharon (to continue the example) have those mental representations that belong to their biographies, and we really have no basis (in terms of the Good) to demand their inner life be any different than it is. Each has their path to freedom, and it is not ours to insist they walk any other way than the way that they walk.

Joel, what demands have been made on the innter lives of DD, PS or Sharon, and by whom? And who has insisted on what to curtail anyone's path to freedom?

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 2:43 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

Hi Joel

happy to read you again !

Well., you're surely right suggesting to look into those people's biographies, aka trying to realize the difference between the mistake and the human being who is "the bearer"of it. Neverthless here on the web, I meet difficulties in order to perform this noble spiritual gesture.. Before talking about these difficulties , letme step back for a while..

I have the task to defend what a good karma gave me in form of Anthroposophy. When i say "defend" I mean to tell it in a double way, and one of them is precisely "rearrange the mistakes" especially when they spring from a bad faith standpoint ,by the means of a whole lot of falsehoods , legitimate as you like on a "legal" point of view, , but entirely built on precoinceved ideas in a way able to remember me of the same twisted way of thinking typical of Shoah's ""denialists".

(The other -and main- way of "defending Anthroposphy"- is basically to enforce inside myself the inner development path in order to help the building of the right foundation for the Social life, but it doesn't mean that I have no more the task to defend- IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD- the "word" from the liars!)

"Defending anthroposphy": I certainly use the tools of my own "choleric" character , but i always keep on trying to mantain the right epistemological correctnes ( conceptual framework, inner "ear for truth" and quotes,references, and so on).

Then. what about the "forgiveness gesture" in it ?

Dear Joel I am here on the web and I'm not discussing "face to face" with RS' "denialsts" so my field of perception of the "other" meets in this case big limits.

So I know PS and DD only for their continouos twisting of Spiritual Science and I have no further chance to know something else of their biographies (maybe some of them was abused by an anthro-uncle...) and , to say it in harsh frankness, i don't care very much about it....

Ad majora

Andrea The (choleric) Italian.

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From: Gisele
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 4:56 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

Joel Wendt wrote:

(80,000 leagues of snip)

Consider the various introductions to different editions of Steiner's Occult Science. Again and again he describes how he expects most who read that book to find flaws with it. He has understood that we live in a time of conflicting (individualized) mental representations, and he does not expect but a few to be ready yet to understand what he has offered. Can we do less?

~~~~This depends on whether we consider ourselves his PEERS or not....

Yes, horrible words are written about what we love. Does that justify us using horrible words back, describing others in dehumanizing ways? Is that an aspect of the practice of anthroposophy?

~~~~sniff, sniff, sob, sob, did you hear that you horrible horrible sharks out there? Stop that racket right now! Mike! Stop pulling monkey faces at Peter! Andrea! Wipe off those obscene words from the blackboard! Taz! I'll shove that f***** POF up **** **se if you don't mind your language! And you Bryan, apologise immediately to Dan or I give you a Saturday detention cleaning up the wc at the WC ok? Silence! Order!!!!

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 11:20 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

At 01:56 05.02.2004, Gisele wrote:

~~~~sniff, sniff, sob, sob, did you hear that you horrible horrible sharks out there? Stop that racket right now! Mike! Stop pulling monkey faces at Peter! Andrea! Wipe off those obscene words from the blackboard! Taz! I'll shove that f***** POF up **** **se if you don't mind your language! And you Bryan, apologise immediately to Dan or I give you a Saturday detention cleaning up the wc at the WC ok? Silence! Order!!!!

When an Asura bites you in the ass (in the shape of a rat in one of those outdoor johns in the country, at night during a thunder storm), he has to take an extra big chunk to make sure he gets a fragment of your ego. By the same token, if the PLANS-WC cult is going to take a bite outta Waldorf crime, it has to bite excessively hard and deep into the very heart of Anthroposophia to taste the meat..

Joel may be thinking about suggesting a Michaelic sort of approach to the Waldorf Critics. Let's shower them with compassion, with love and flowers. Yes, let's love them. Like the hippies did with the police in San Fransisco, 1967, Summer of Love. Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. We won't call them gremlins and vampires and hyenas any more, but children of God and sweethearts and cream cheeses and cherry pies and flowers. (I have my doubs about pulling this off, but it's worth a suggestion.)

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Mike Helsher
Date: Thu Feb 5, 2004 7:23 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

Gisele writes:

~~~~sniff, sniff, sob, sob, did you hear that you horrible horrible sharks out there? Stop that racket right now! Mike! Stop pulling monkey faces at Peter!

Mike:

No. Not untill he stops making those evil looking Ariman faces at me...

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From: Mike Helsher
Date: Thu Feb 5, 2004 7:42 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] another side: was Bryan's Quote of the Day

[Tarjei:]

When an Asura bites you in the ass (in the shape of a rat in one of those outdoor johns in the country, at night during a thunder storm), he has to take an extra big chunk to make sure he gets a fragment of your ego. By the same token, if the PLANS-WC cult is going to take a bite outta Waldorf crime, it has to bite excessively hard and deep into the very heart of Anthroposophia to taste the meat..

Joel may be thinking about suggesting a Michaelic sort of approach to the Waldorf Critics. Let's shower them with compassion, with love and flowers. Yes, let's love them. Like the hippies did with the police in San Fransisco, 1967, Summer of Love. Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. We won't call them gremlins and vampires and hyenas any more, but children of God and sweethearts and cream cheeses and cherry pies and flowers. (I have my doubs about pulling this off, but it's worth a suggestion.)

Dear Peter,

I love and respect the universal aspect of our humanity that we both share, even though we might not agree as to what that might be. I respect that you have a right to your opinion, as do I, and that even though we disagree allot about the central tenants of anthroposophy, our shared humanity is not thus diminished. I will try to believe that you have the best interests of all those involved in your discussions at heart, and from now on will try to keep our shared humanity at the core or our discussions. Even if we don't actually discuss anything. I will try not to make monkey faces at you, if you stop making those stupid Amiman faces at me. I promise to stop making stupid allegations as your motive and intent, as soon as you stop making all those stupid allegations that you make. And I will not be disrespectful anymore about your blatant disrespect for the religious nature of Steiner's work....

Ahh shit. It's a start anyway.

Truth and Love and the evolution of such

Mike

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Feb 5, 2004 3:00 pm
Subject: Re: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Bryan's Quote of the Day

At 16:44 03.02.2004, Andrea wrote:

Tks a lot,Tarjei,

I live in Italy and here, since the Waldorf orientted school are very few we have not such a kind of problem. (I have the opposite, just to pick up money in order to let my children become "waldorf-anthro addict.!!). I followed the thread in France,Netherlands ,Germany and, especially in France, I had the impression - as others have had- that there was a kind of "little masonic hands" behind the French "anti-Waldorf crusade.

I've missed out on that, but it's absolutely fascinating - especially when we compare this crusade of today with that of the 1920's and 1930's when the movement was attacked from the anti-Semitic political right by Masonic hands. Just wait until I post that chapter from "Trail of the Serpent", and you'll see.

On the same time, in Germany, most of the "eco-fascist =anthropop" hoaxes' campaign seems to spring from some problems insiide the German Grren Party, namely the attempt of neo-marxist wing to gain power over the ecologist wing., somewhat concerned with Steiner's teachings, mainly in Waldorf and Byofarming areas.

That seems to be Peter Staudenmaier's camp.

But what's behind the US campaign ? Is it only a spontaneous matter of social mental illness and disturbance or is something else behind ?

What is your insight about it ?

The PLANS-WC cult and hate group originates with Dan Dugan's own 1987 Waldorf Horror Story, when his children were attending a Waldorf school in San Francisco and he discovered "racist" texts by Steiner, and the Waldorf teachers seemed bewildered when he pointed this out and they said Steiner was complicated and they wouldn't refute Steiner's "racism". This is why DD, seventeen years later, is very insistent that anthroposophists must refute "racism" in anthroposophy. His demands amounts to that anthro's must abandon their entire Weltanschauung, which DD consideres obscene and immoral and compares to the beliefs of Nazi war criminal Alfred Rosenberg. So naturally, Peter Staudenmaier and Dan Dugan have found each other. Before the arrival of PS, DD was soing his Nazi war dance against anthroposophy solo. With a little help from people like Sharon, Newpaul, Diana, Debra and the rest, they have elaborated an entire theology of sorts with some kind of sinister Protocols of Steiner plotting racial wars in the future, brainwashing and psychic violence and child abuse.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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