Charlatan's Ways

Don Pedro

 

From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:07 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

SIGNOR andrea wrote:

Can we say now that. discussing with such a faggot, we are losing our time ?

NO....

YES! Don Pedro reminds me of Don Quixote, who was a madman of course, but when he wasn't fighting windmills and people listened to him, he often sounded perfectly sane. There were no psychologists those days, so Q went unconsciously on his futile way. Don Pedro on the other hand, who needs help badly, has the possibility of seeing a good shrink, although it does seem a bit late for that. This is a guy who first says R.S. was an anti-semite at the beginning of his career, but an assimilation one, which is just as bad as an non-assimilation one. Then, a couple of years later, he was suddenly an anti-anti-Semite; then later on, he went back to being an anti-Semite, as evidenced by his conviction that Jews should assimilate (instead of founding a Jewish state as the Zionists wanted, but I think he forgot to mention that). All this is completely consistent with Steiner's idea for a Threefold Society, of course, according to which a religious state would be a throwback to the past, and could only have dire consequences. It's evident from current events in Palestine that he was right, but that's no longer history, it's after 1925, so we musn't mention it. (On the other hand, it's also evident that Steiner was wrong about assimilation, for look what happened to those who assimilated in Europe.)

Now Don Pedro has been dishing out his bullshit (oilily, as though he were sane) for years, and it's really gotten boooring, like a broken CD. So he needs someone to listen to him, even answer him as though what he is saying deserves to be answered, to be taken seriously (as one of Don Q's friends did, pretending to be a errant knight and fighting Don Q). So what better place to go than to the anthropop Camelot, where there are sure to be wannabe knights errant willing to take up a lance in order to teach him a lesson. A waste of time, Caro Andrea, Don Pedro has another agenda, to wit, to shore up his own crumbling ego. Maybe he unconsciously wants to convert from Jesuitism to Anthroposophy. Could we help him do that? Possibly, but we should consider the consequences. After all, look what happened when pathologics were screwing up the AS back in 1915, as discussed here what seems ages ago, pre-Don Pedro. Don P. is filling up my mailbox and my patience with crap. And what about his squire, Sancho Dan, and his Lady Fair, Dulcinea Diana? Sancho Panza had a panza (potbelly) and could talk a blue streak, but at least he was funny; Sancho Dan is a sourpuss. Princess Dulcinea was, in reality, an unwashed, ignorant peasant girl. Dulcinea Diana has come a long way via her various incarnations: she now washes.

To sum up: Are we wasting our time? Yes, we could be preparing for the 6th cultural epoch (root race - ho, ho) and next year's Super Bowl - or World Cup, if you prefer.

Arrivaderci,

Francesco PS: there's no ad homenem expulsions here. The only one who can be booted out is our own beloved Santa Sofía, now biting her nails in the corner wondering how to be anarchically authoritarian.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:42 am
Subject: Re: Don Pedro

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Frank Thomas Smith

Don Pedro has another agenda, to wit, to shore up his own crumbling ego. Maybe he unconsciously wants to convert from Jesuitism to Anthroposophy. Could we help him do that? Possibly, but we should consider the consequences. After all, look what happened when pathologics were screwing up the AS back in 1915, as discussed here what seems ages ago, pre-Don Pedro. Don P. is filling up my mailbox and my patience with crap. And what about his squire, Sancho Dan, and his Lady Fair, Dulcinea Diana? Sancho Panza had a panza (potbelly) and could talk a blue streak, but at least he was funny; Sancho Dan is a sourpuss. Princess Dulcinea was, in reality, an unwashed, ignorant peasant girl. Dulcinea Diana has come a long way via her various incarnations: she now washes.

Bradford sputters and spits oatmeal on his computer screen!

Oh shit! Did you have to reveal the Emperors wardrobe? God, if love of men are in this season, sign me up. St. Francis tortured and tickled Don Pedro's belly button. Yup...he wants to be a member of our club, yup...deputy dog.. he shuurrre does... He wants to be a member of our club... Lets all pull out our feathers and Initiate brother Pedro...

But wait, St. Paulina woke up and did her pit bull growl... Everyone sing.. We LUUUVVVAAA UUU DONNNie Darko Pedro... OH yes we do... WE Luuuvvaaa UU OH yes we do.... Jo Ann, barrista get this constipation case an enemaa...and put out side.. St. Franis is tired of him shitting all over the mohair carpet.

Thanks Frank - Great refreshing cool dash of spring water and direct hit on the slap me in the face and take a brisk shower... worse than driving in the smog of L.A. He hasn't open that dark Catholic closet for years.. Mike, help me pull this door open, it seems to be rusted shut...oh shit is that super glue?

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:02 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

Hi SCR-man, happy to read of you!

You could be right but.....

Well if someone , three days go, should have been telling me that there is a guy on the earth, OUTSIDE a mental asylum, able to say that Evola's racism has something in common with Steiner's insights I should have to answer him "posa er fiasco". More or less: try to drink less!|

And,,, think of the "Absence of Prejudice" exercise...... Don Pedro Charlatanmaier has been able to perform such a "miracle". (My Italians fellows are still laughin'......)

A..

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:54 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Don Pedro

At 19:42 23.02.2004, Bradford wrote:

But wait, St. Paulina woke up and did her pit bull growl...

Man, you're nuts! Fortunately, Paulina won't run to the WC and complain about your notorious and infectious zoological name-calling :)

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: bryanmillermail
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:39 pm
Subject: Re: Don Pedro

Francesco/Frank wrote:

there's no ad homenem expulsions here. The only one who can be booted out is our own beloved Santa Sofía, now biting her nails in the corner wondering how to be anarchically authoritarian.

Frank, my friend (please allow me to call you so),

Your comment, so very precise, not only made me laugh but encouraged me to rejoin this list which I much enjoy despite the dictatorator presiding over it. At least I am not alone in my view of this terrifying lady.

Bryan

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:38 pm
Subject: Don Pedro's nghts.

Shhh, people.

Here I am able to give an answer to the crucial question of these days.

How was Don Pedro able to gain his brilliant,powerful and original knowledge of Steiner's work and life.?
Shhhh, it's a purely occult answer, coming from an Elemental Being named Mocciòlo (one of the four 100 Acres Wood's Guardians, the others, as you know, are Caccolo,Sputalo e Magnalo).

Well Don Pedro is obliged every night, before to be allowed to sleep, to pick up his Steiner's portrait and scream to him 666 times "You're a racist".

Next night he is obliged to scream "You're an antisemite".

It's not an easy job. Last night Mocciolo said to me that, all at once, a terrible,powerful voice has screamed in answer: "And you are an Asshole!!!"

Anthropop Secret Service

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:25 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

At 19:07 23.02.2004, Frank wrote:

Francesco PS: there's no ad homenem expulsions here. The only one who can be booted out is our own beloved Santa Sofía, now biting her nails in the corner wondering how to be anarchically authoritarian.

If that turns out to be a problem, she'll probably be replaced by Xena the Warrior Princess.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

It isn't clear to me who wrote the following (Frank?), but it does get part of my argument more or less right:

This is a guy who first says R.S. was an anti-semite at the beginning of his career, but an assimilation one, which is just as bad as an non-assimilation one. Then, a couple of years later, he was suddenly an anti-anti-Semite; then later on, he went back to being an anti-Semite

Yes, that is what I hold, minus the "suddenly" part and the bit about "just as bad". This sort of reversal was not that uncommon in Steiner's era; two other well-known examples are Oskar Panizza and Walter Bloem, who both underwent significant changes in their attitudes toward Jews, from an antisemitic position to a philosemitic one and back to antisemitism.

as evidenced by his conviction that Jews should assimilate (instead of founding a Jewish state as the Zionists wanted, but I think he forgot to mention that).

If I understand that clause, the author believes that the two options at the time were completely abandoning Jewish identity, or Zionism. This is quite inaccurate. There was no Zionist movement in 1888, and once the movement emerged it remained small and unpopular among German Jews for many years. The vast majority of German Jews in Steiner's day rejected both Zionism and the disappearance of Jewry that Steiner preached.

Peter Staudenmaier

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:52 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

--- Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

It isn't clear to me who wrote the following (Frank?), but it does get part of my argument more or less right:

This is a guy who first says R.S. was an anti-semite at the beginning of his career, but an assimilation one, which is just as bad as an non-assimilation one. Then, a couple of years later, he was suddenly an anti-anti-Semite; then later on, he went back to being an anti-Semite

Peter:

Yes, that is what I hold, minus the "suddenly" part and the bit about "just as bad". This sort of reversal was not that uncommon in Steiner's era; two other well-known examples are Oskar Panizza and Walter Bloem, who both underwent significant changes in their attitudes toward Jews, from an antisemitic position to a philosemitic one and back to antisemitism.

Well, in those that study Dr. Steiner it is pretty clear that he was not a tetoler in the way you have described him above: flipflopping, jumping through hoops, losing his touch with his inner thought. You may ascribe this to other men if you like but one of Dr. Steiners traits this was not.

What I find really interesting is that you just had four people show you to another translation of the German expression that speaks differently than yours. What do you attribute this to? Is it an anthro problem in your mind?

Dottie

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:18 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Don Pedro

Bradford sputtered and spit oatmeal on his computer screen!

Oh shit! Did you have to reveal the Emperors wardrobe? God, if love of men are in this season, sign me up. St. Francis tortured and tickled Don Pedro's belly button. Yup...he wants to be a member of our club, yup...deputy dog.. he shuurrre does... He wants to be a member of our club... Lets all pull out our feathers and Initiate brother Pedro...

But wait, St. Paulina woke up and did her pit bull growl... Everyone sing.. We LUUUVVVAAA UUU DONNNie Darko Pedro... OH yes we do... WE Luuuvvaaa UU OH yes we do.... Jo Ann, barrista get this constipation case an enemaa...and put out side.. St. Franis is tired of him shitting all over the mohair carpet.

Bradford, old boy, Don Pedro has trouble understanding what you mean. I, on the other hand, as an expert in and translator of anthrobabble, can only advise him to copy everything (or nothing) you write at least 100 times on the blackboard, always in deep contemplation. When finished, he'll either be a raving maniac (more so than now) or a candidate for the anthropop 33rd degree, as well as an Agnus Dei merit badge.

Yours in triple whamminess,

St. F.

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:29 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

Hi Dottie, you wrote:

What I find really interesting is that you just had four people show you to another translation of the German expression that speaks differently than yours. What do you attribute this to? Is it an anthro problem in your mind?

No, I don't think it's an anthro problem. As you can see, a number of anthroposophists agree with my reading and disagree with Detlef's.

[From the thread agreement and disagreement 2]

This is a pretty open group

Yes, I like the openness of this group.

they can easily see through what you are trying to make true from your own personal world outlook and perspective."

I get the distinct impression that several list members quite misunderstand my personal outlook and perspective. You, for example, thought I was opposed to spirituality. But that kind of misrecognition is pretty much par for the course in internet discussions. I think it makes more sense to concentrate on what Steiner actually said and wrote, and explore the historical context of what he said and wrote, rather than trying to divine the personal outlook of other listmates.

Peter

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:48 pm
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro]

Peter, you wrote:

It isn't clear to me who wrote the following (Frank?), but it does get part of my argument more or less right:

Frank

This is a guy who first says R.S. was an anti-semite at the beginning of his career, but an assimilation one, which is just as bad as an non-assimilation one. Then, a couple of years later, he was suddenly an anti-anti-Semite; then later on, he went back to being an anti-Semite

Peter:

Yes, that is what I hold, minus the "suddenly" part and the bit about "just as bad". This sort of reversal was not that uncommon in Steiner's era; two other well-known examples are Oskar Panizza and Walter Bloem, who both underwent significant changes in their attitudes toward Jews, from an antisemitic position to a philosemitic one and back to antisemitism.

F:

as evidenced by his conviction that Jews should assimilate (instead of founding a Jewish state as the Zionists wanted, but I think he forgot to mention that).

P:

If I understand that clause, the author believes that the two options at the time were completely abandoning Jewish identity, or Zionism. This is quite inaccurate. There was no Zionist movement in 1888, and once the movement emerged it remained small and unpopular among German Jews for many years. The vast majority of German Jews in Steiner's day rejected both Zionism and the disappearance of Jewry that Steiner preached.

Leon Pinsker published his "Auto-emancipation" in German in 1882, which began the popularization (amongst Jews) of the idea of a Jewish state. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1990. But one cannot claim that the movement was born with the name. You wrote: "The vast majority of German Jews in Steiner's day rejected both Zionism and the disappearance of Jewry that Steiner preached." Imo, the phrase "disappearance of Jewry" refers to Jewry as a "Volk" (people or, better, "nation"), and not to the Jewish religion or the Jews themselves. In other words, assimilation. History shows that those who followed the assimilation option - in Europe - turned out to have been fatally mistaken.

Frank

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:03 pm
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro]

Hi Frank, you wrote:

Leon Pinsker published his "Auto-emancipation" in German in 1882, which began the popularization (amongst Jews) of the idea of a Jewish state. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1990. But one cannot claim that the movement was born with the name.

1890. The movement wasn't born until later that decade, in the wake of Herzl's book and the first several Zionist congresses.

Imo, the phrase "disappearance of Jewry" refers to Jewry as a "Volk" (people or, better, "nation"), and not to the Jewish religion or the Jews themselves.

I agree with you on the religion part, but not on the Jews themselves part. I think that the disappearance of the Jewish people means the disappearance of Jews and of Jewishness.

In other words, assimilation.

Yes, in the sense of amalgamation and absorption. This was not at all the sense of assimilation which German Jews themselves pursued. The distinction is a commonplace in the historical literature, and is crucial to understanding the debates of the period.

History shows that those who followed the assimilation option - in Europe - turned out to have been fatally mistaken.

I agree, though we can't hold that against supporters of assimilation in, say, 1910. In my exchanges with Christine and Daniel I've tried to explain that my beef with Steiner is not that he supported assimilation, or even just that he supported amalgamation and absorption (though that certainly plays a role in my assessment); I think he also partook of several varities of antisemitic thinking that shaped his own views on the "Jewish question". I hope to get around to writing more about that soon.

Peter

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:49 am
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro]

Peter:

Hi Frank, you wrote:

Leon Pinsker published his "Auto-emancipation" in German in 1882, which began the popularization (amongst Jews) of the idea of a Jewish state. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1990. But one cannot claim that the movement was born with the name.

1890. The movement wasn't born until later that decade, in the wake of Herzl's book and the first several Zionist congresses.

Movement schmoozment. That may be the case for an organized movement, but it was in the consciousness of many people before that, so to say that there was no Zionist movement in 1888, as you did, implies that when Steiner wrote that article there was no discussion concerning assimilation-homeland, which there was.

Imo, the phrase "disappearance of Jewry" refers to Jewry as a "Volk" (people or, better, "nation"), and not to the Jewish religion or the Jews themselves.

I agree with you on the religion part, but not on the Jews themselves part. I think that the disappearance of the Jewish people means the disappearance of Jews and of Jewishness.

That's a loaded statement, Peter. It sounds like you are referring to someting like the "final solution". I know you're not, but I think you should be more careful. If we agree that religion is not the point, then what is? It seems to me obvious that Steiner means the jews should integrate whichever society they live in and forget about being a separate nation, such as the German, French, Russian, etc. nations or people.

In other words, assimilation.

Yes, in the sense of amalgamation and absorption. This was not at all the sense of assimilation which German Jews themselves pursued. The distinction is a commonplace in the historical literature, and is crucial to understanding the debates of the period.

I seriously doubt that all German Jews were unanimous on the definitions of amalgamation, absorption and assimilation.

Frank

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:06 am
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro]

Hi Frank, you wrote:

Movement schmoozment.

Fair enough. I was thinking of a genuine movement, but you're right that the idea usually precedes that establishment of the movement, and did so in this case.

That may be the case for an organized movement, but it was in the consciousness of many people before that

Yes, that's true. But it really wasn't an organized movement yet, and even after Herzl and Nordau et al got it off the ground, the Zionist movement remained small and weak within Germany and Austria for a long time.

so to say that there was no Zionist movement in 1888, as you did, implies that when Steiner wrote that article there was no discussion concerning assimilation-homeland, which there was.

But at that abstract level, this discussion had been going on for centuries, had little to do with Zionism as we now understand it, and rarely involved non-Jews. But I do think you are right in one important respect; Steiner's 1888 article is a review of Hamerling's book, and Hamerling did indeed depict an imaginary return of the Jews to Palestine; that chapter of Hamerling's book is in essence a parody of what later became Zionism. What I was getting at is that since almost nobody actually held or promoted Zionist ideas in 1888, it makes no sense to say that Steiner's critique of "Jewry as such" was really just a critique of Zionism (not that that's what you were saying, but this is a claim I have heard from lots of anthroposophists, particularly German anthroposophists).

That's a loaded statement, Peter. It sounds like you are referring to someting like the "final solution".

No, no, no. The final solution meant the physical annihilation of Jews. Steiner's proposed "solution" to the "Jewish question" was basically the opposite. He did not want to annihilate anybody, he just wanted Jews to stop being Jewish.

I know you're not, but I think you should be more careful.

I am still open to suggestions on this score, but at this point I have a hard time imagining how I could possibly be clearer about this. I must have said it a dozen times in the last five days. Steiner's version of antisemitism -- for those of us who believe he held some antisemitic beliefs -- was fundamentally distinct from Nazi versions. Steiner's was much more in line with Treitschke's, for example.

If we agree that religion is not the point, then what is?

For Steiner I think it was essentially Jewishness as such, which he seems to have understood in more or less ethnic terms ("das Judentum als Volk").

It seems to me obvious that Steiner means the jews should integrate whichever society they live in and forget about being a separate nation, such as the German, French, Russian, etc. nations or people.

Yes, I think that is indeed part of what Steiner meant. The phrase he used was "in den andern Völkern aufgehen", to be completely absorbed into the other peoples.

I seriously doubt that all German Jews were unanimous on the definitions of amalgamation, absorption and assimilation.

There was a striking degree of consensus on this question among the vast majority of German Jews. It really is a prominent issue in the historiography of German Jewry. Here are a couple of quick quotes from a range of historians (there are lots of similar passages in other works):

"The spokesmen of the Jewish communities interpreted integration as a process that would enable them to retain some kind of separate identity as Jews without jeopardizing their full membership in the German nation. The Christians, however, understood Jewish integration as a process that would deprive Jewish identity, except for the Orthodox element, of all meaning or justification."

(Uriel Tal, Christians and Jews in Germany p. 63)

"In every case we must precisely distinguish between the conception of assimilation shared by the dominant German majority culture, which aimed at the disappearance of Jewish identity, and the viewpoint of the Jewish minority, which sought to adopt the majority culture while preserving its own."

(Christian Wiese, Wissenschaft des Judentums und protestantische Theologie im wilhelminischen Deutschland p. 46)

According to Wiese, pro-assimilationist German Jews "critically disputed the exclusivist assimilation model of the non-Jewish majority, which strove for complete amalgamation, and proposed instead the concept of 'Germanness and Jewishness', which demanded equal rights to participation in the majority culture in conjunction with full preservation of Jewish identity." (ibid. p. 248)

Peter

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From: Linda Clemens
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:14 pm
Subject: [Fwd: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro]

--- Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

But at that abstract level, this discussion had been going on for centuries, had little to do with Zionism as we now understand it, and rarely involved non-Jews. But I do think you are right in one important respect; Steiner's 1888 article is a review of Hamerling's book, and Hamerling did indeed depict an imaginary return of the Jews to Palestine; that chapter of Hamerling's book is in essence a parody of what later became Zionism. What I was getting at is that since almost nobody actually held or promoted Zionist ideas in 1888, it makes no sense to say that Steiner's critique of "Jewry as such" was really just a critique of Zionism (not that that's what you were saying, but this is a claim I have heard from lots of anthroposophists, particularly German anthroposophists).

Isn't this a crafty "shading" away from the essence of the problem? Whether or not there was yet an official definition of "zionism" is irrelevant. There clearly was a vigorous debate over "assimilation" and what some have termed "denationalization" or "decorporatization". Throughout centuries of European history, Jews lived in self-contained communities and tended to think of themselves as exiles. "The Jewish Question" concerned how European Jews were to fit in the newly forming national identities, and particularly in German speaking countries, the topic of Jewish "emancipation" was widely debated in the mid 19th century. By the 1870s and 1880s abandoning that Jewish "national" identity altogether was a radical notion advanced by the Jewish Reform movement and others.

Steiner's remarks clearly make sense when examined in this context. Whether or not you agree with his opinion on the "Jewish question" is irrelevant. That he held to the "assimilation" view doesn't mark him as an anti-semite--though radical, this view was shared by many Jews of the day as well.

He did not want to annihilate anybody, he just wanted Jews to stop being Jewish.

What does this mean "to be Jewish"? See how easy it is for a simple remark to cause a warning blip on the "anti-semitic" radar screen?

Can I ask a few very basic questions here?

1) What difference does it really make what Steiner's views were about assimilation? IT'S A DEAD ISSUE!!! Europe today is not debating whether its Jews should or shouldn't remain a politically and culturally distinct people!

2) How do Steiner's views relate AT ALL with Naziism? Nazis were not arguing to "assimilate" Jews! They were busying themselves with identifying them, signposting their "Jewishness", and yanking them OUT of every aspect of German social and political life, back into the ghettos and ultimately into the gas chambers!

3) Really, how many have even READ this obscure article of Steiner's? And those of you that say you have read it don't seem to agree on what it says. Can't we agree that this is TRIVIA? It certainly can't be described as any "influential" significance to people today. Arcane comments where even the few that read them must debate each and every word ?? (nicht/nichts/no-nichts and interfere/intervene?) Isn't this working very, very, very, very, very hard to find something to complain about?

Today the situation is thus. The Jewish state of Israel is now a reality. This doesn't sit well untold millions, and though I'm sure the reasons for this are very complex, somebody's going to have to figure out how to turn this into a happy ending because the tensions over this issue threaten to rip the world in two. These tensions have opened doors to a new wave of anti-Semitism in Europe. Annihilation of the Jews ranks very high on the To Do list of too damn many political, educational, and religious extremists worldwide, and you don't have to dust off some obscure 100 year old article tucked away on the back shelf of the Goetheanum to demonstrate how this extremism is influencing millions of people--today.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless pragmatist but I fail to appreciate that putting Steiner on trial over every "nichts" or "eingreifen" is a response to genuine concerns over anti-semitism.

L

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:06 am
Subject: Little questions to Don pedro

Little questions to Don Pedro.

Re-thinking various discussion I noticed that you never claimed here the topic "Scaligero's racism".

Why Pedro?

It's a bit strange, listmates, since if you go at the W(ater)aldorf C(loset)ritics list you can find a very interesting "debate" about this matter. It is, If I remember well, dated Sept.2002, 30 (in any case type "Massimo Scaligero" on Google).

The brightest fact in it is that both the "Inquisitor" (what a rudeness when you're at home Mr. Obsessed!) and the "defender", a poor ignorant guy called " Percedol " does not know anything at all of Scaligero's life and biography and most of all of his written work where the "why" and "when" of his so-called "racism" are explained.

That's a bright example of how PS and WC are used to work : falsehoods, twisted facts, lack of knowledge about the object of their claims.

Well, there is in Italy a well-known journalist and writer , Marco Dolcetta, who wrote a year ago a book about "Nazionalsocialismo Esoterico",

In this book he claims that: the "swiss man" Steiner told that in Hitler was alive "The Light of Michael", that he helped Nazi politics in Europe till 1935 , that at Wewelsburg Castle the SS were used to drink AH's blood following a ritual that Hess received from RS's hands! (I'm not joking I have been able to gain the book's sequestration from the bookstores).

Well, Pedro why don't you make Dolcetta "membre d'honneur" at WC's list ?

Andrea

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:12 am
Subject: Don Pedro's Trial

Diana:

So sue us, we can use the publicity.

Ladies and Gentlemen (and Hobbits) of the Jury,

When considering your verdict, I urge you to remember that the accused, the muggle Don Pedro de la Puta, in addition to his other crimes, such as smugness, prevarication, provocation, quoting things out of context, slander, incestual pollution - (defence cries Objection! prosecution apologizes, explaining he meant "intellectual" pollution, objection overruled) - is also a self-proclaimed atheist and, as such, is anti-semitic, anti-Christian, anti-Islam, anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, anti-Gnostic, anti-human, anti-Everything. In defence, his attorney, Doña Diana de las over 40 años, has done nothing but hug him and tickle his bolas, which is touching (sic) but irrelevant to the case. However, as an extenuating circumstance, we should bear in mind Dr. Steiner's succinct evaluation (paraphrasing): "Atheists are sick dudes." In conclusion, the prosecution suggests that you allow him to keep his anthroposophical books in cold storage for a distant future incarnation when, we can hope at least, he will have reformed sufficiently to appreciate them. As penalty/pennance, the People demand that you agree that in his next incarnation he will be a cockroach on the far side of the moon.

Thank you for your attention.

Prof. Dr.Enuf Allredy

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:06 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro's Trial

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Thomas Smith <franksmith@vdolores.com.ar>
To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 12:12 PM
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro's Trial

Diana:

So sue us, we can use the publicity.

Ladies and Gentlemen (and Hobbits) of the Jury,

When considering your verdict, I urge you to remember that the accused, the muggle Don Pedro de la Puta, in addition to his other crimes, such as smugness, prevarication, provocation, quoting things out of context, slander, incestual pollution - (defence cries Objection! prosecution apologizes, explaining he meant "intellectual" pollution, objection overruled) - is also a self-proclaimed atheist and, as such, is anti-semitic, anti-Christian, anti-Islam, anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, anti-Gnostic, anti-human, anti-Everything. In defence, his attorney, Doña Diana de las over 40 años, has done nothing but hug him and tickle his bolas, which is touching (sic) but irrelevant to the case. However, as an extenuating circumstance, we should bear in mind Dr. Steiner's succinct evaluation (paraphrasing): "Atheists are sick dudes." In conclusion, the prosecution suggests that you allow him to keep his anthroposophical books in cold storage for a distant future incarnation when, we can hope at least, he will have reformed sufficiently to appreciate them. As penalty/pennance, the People demand that you agree that in his next incarnation he will be a cockroach on the far side of the moon.

Thank you for your attention.

Prof. Dr.Enuf Allredy

Andrea kindly replies:

Dear Prof Dr, Enuf Allredy,

as i've been posting this morning today I'm in the mood for kindness. So I suggest the court to give PS a chance by the means of Prof.Strozzacapponi's treatment (aka brain-sprinkling of duck-bill's urine) offering him a ticket to Rome where he will be nursed with any possible kindness by St Cunegonda's Hospital crew.

A.

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From: winters_diana
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:25 am
Subject: Re: Don Pedro's Trial

Diana:

So sue us, we can use the publicity.

No, Dan said that, not me. I did, however, suggest that separation of church and state, on which PLANS' lawsuit is based, should be embraced by anthroposophists because it protects them too.

Diana

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From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:39 am
Subject: Re: Don Pedro's Trial

- Frank Thomas Smith wrote:

When active Imagination and clear thinking unite both humor and truth arise with the richness of the Fairy Tale. It sees objectivity with new organs of perception. These new organs are the cognitive capacities that arise in the new model of the Unfallen AnthroSophic Soul, that also appears in "The Blue Flower" and "The Green Snake and Beautiful Lily" Two cases, prime examples of how thinking is also exact sensorial phantasy, are listed below.

For those with thinking ability, to understand just how heated were the disagreements of the SchoolMen in the debates over Nominalism and Realism, we see how the struggle to have Thought remain connected to the heart stream and not disconnected, was furiously debated. This example, for those who have I AM cognition, supports what Dr. Steiner was placing as a real Karmic world issue that would certainly arise again in I AM's of all stripes, John Scotus to Aquinas etc, that transcend, gene, heredity or race. Rather are they I AM experiences carried over unconsciously, until we see them arise again.

To also have objectivity, cognition and Love, note Love of Wisdom, ideas can be objectified. What passes as debate where ideas are disconnected from the heart sphere, allows Dialectical Materialism to plant a mild disease in the soul. Now it is not that doubt and eclipse of thinking is not part of the 5 Post Atlantean experience, it is and the each of us have had to wrestle with dialectical materialism in our own souls.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0815402.html

But as we surface again, with a fresh life time in this incarnation the terms SPIN, deception and manipulation have brought forth fruit that is not of a good Tree. Again if we take Gilgamesh and his sleeping through the 7 loaves of bread, we see that Noah declares that all men are liars. We have the inborn errors in us. These Cognitive confrontations with the I AM capacity, as a new Soul Gift strike against the falling darkness of theories presented by millions, that also take the shape of the symptomology that Dan Dugan and Peter reperesent. Objectivity is to understand that the ancient concepts of Nominalism and Realism have profound roots in the stream of incarnations and these present arguments.

What must be noted, and cannot be emphasized enough, is that Science is sitting on a pile of Fairy Tales awaiting the new AnthroSophic Soul faculty of exact sensorial phantasy that can only arise in the I AM cognition that Steiner so bravely represented out of the German thinking stream.

A toast to Imagination and Clear Thinking!

The Hanging Judge passed sentence:

Ladies and Gentlemen (and Hobbits) of the Jury,

When considering your verdict, I urge you to remember that the accused, the muggle Don Pedro de la Puta, in addition to his other crimes, such as smugness, prevarication, provocation, quoting things out of context, slander, incestual pollution - (defence cries Objection! prosecution apologizes, explaining he meant "intellectual" pollution, objection overruled) - is also a self-proclaimed atheist and, as such, is anti-semitic, anti-Christian, anti-Islam, anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, anti-Gnostic, anti-human, anti-Everything. In defence, his attorney, Doña Diana de las over 40 años, has done nothing but hug him and tickle his bolas, which is touching (sic) but irrelevant to the case. However, as an extenuating circumstance, we should bear in mind Dr. Steiner's succinct evaluation (paraphrasing): "Atheists are sick dudes." In conclusion, the prosecution suggests that you allow him to keep his anthroposophical books in cold storage for a distant future incarnation when, we can hope at least, he will have reformed sufficiently to appreciate them. As penalty/pennance, the People demand that you agree that in his next incarnation he will be a cockroach on the far side of the moon.

Thank you for your attention.

Prof. Dr.Enuf Allredy

Italy sent in expert witnesses;

"Dear List.

Since today is my Birthday I decided myself to be a kind hearted guy and told a good friend of mine, prominent psychiatrist . about the pitiful Peter's story

He helped me this morning with the following e-mail:

"Dearest Andrea,

the case you told me about is actually a serious one. This compulsive obsession to see "racist statement" also inside the commas is a border-line disease between neurosis and paranoia and, if not opposed, it will be easily became a total mental disaster for the poor PS. Luckily, here at St Cunegonda's Hospital my good fellow Psychiatrist Prof. Evaristo Strozzacapponi did experience a new, revolutionary therapy. It consists of a 30 days cycle of brain sprinkling by the mean of ornthorynchus' urina. Here we have, for instance, a 38 years woman who has been claiming that Mother Therese was a slaves' smuggler. After a 2-months cycle things are getting better since now she is only convinced that the Mother was a coke-addict. We are sure of a complete healing in a couple of years. So we are ready also for your Mr.Staudenmaier !"

Yours Faithfully

Prof:Anselmo Filippo Scaccabarozzi
St. Cunegonda's Hospital . Via della Lebbra 23 00186 Rome Italy.

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From: zapdingo
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:10 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro's Trial

I hereby offer my services - pro bono - to defend Mr. Staudenmaier, who has been mostly vilified in this list, and made fun of, undeservingly, as I intend to prove.

As his defense, I offer the following arguments:

a) Mr. S's dog ate his homework.
b) Mr. S has done it all for the nookie.
c) Mr. S is in fact Mr. Stromboli, a circus artist, whose only aim was to please and entertain.
d) Mr. S uses only the sources confirming his views since he's not a doctor and no death will result of his actions.
e) Mr. S regrets any problems caused to the New York Times due to his research methods.
f) All or none of the above.

And now, to the closing arguments*:

And his ending is despair,
Unless he be relieved by prayer
Which pierces so that it assaults
Mercy itself, and frees all faults
As you from crimes would pardoned by
Let your indulgence set him free.

Or not. In which case, I demand that he be placed in an asparagus/God free prison.

Bryan

*With a little help from Mr. William S.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:15 am
Subject: Medical Diagnosis

holderlin66 adds further medical proof:

Bradford comments:

Dialectical materialism enters the ether body and begins to dry it up. But something else, the mimic begins to grow. We do not observe the growth because too few people Test Dr. Steiner and want his diagnosis buried. The etheric substance in the human being, rather than becoming saturated with etheric compassion wrought by the tears we privately shed, the joy we experience in seeing the light in childrens eyes... A literal shrinking and invoking a 'shadow' being into the etheric body in place of the saturating, lucid etheric substance of the Risen Christos takes place. I'm afraid, as mad as this sounds, it is concrete fact. This is the John Nash syndrome.

R.S. clinical diagnosis:

"The Mephistophelean nature is strengthened by all the prejudices and limitations of materialism, and a future can already be perceived when everyone will be born with a second being by his side, a being who whispers to him of the foolishness of those who speak of the reality of the spiritual world. Man will, of course, disavow the riddle of Mephistopheles, just as he disavows that of the Sphinx; nevertheless he will chain a second being to his heels. Accompanied by this second being, he will feel the urge to think materialistic thoughts, to think, not through his own being, but through the second being who is his companion.

In an ether-body that has been parched by materialism, Mephistopheles will be able to dwell. Understanding what this implies, we shall realize that it is our duty to educate children in the future - be it by way of Eurythmy or the development of a spiritual-scientific outlook - in such a way that they will be competent to understand the spiritual world. The ether-body must be quickened in order that the human being may be able to take his rightful stand, fully cognizant of the nature of the being who stands at his side. If he does not understand the nature of this second being, he will be spellbound by him, fettered to him."

"Dearest Andrea,

the case you told me about is actually a serious one. This compulsive obsession to see "racist statement" also inside the commas is a border-line disease between neurosis and paranoia and, if not opposed, it will be easily became a total mental disaster for the poor PS. Luckily, here at St Cunegonda's Hospital my good fellow Psychiatrist Prof. Evaristo Strozzacapponi did experience a new, revolutionary therapy.

It consists of a 30 days cycle of brain sprinkling by the mean of ornthorynchus' urina.

Here we have, for instance, a 38 years woman who has been claiming that Mother Therese was a slaves' smuggler. After a 2-months cycle things are getting better since now she is only convinced that the Mother was a coke-addict. We are sure of a complete healing in a couple of years. So we are ready also for your Mr.Staudenmaier !"

Yours Faithfully

Prof:Anselmo Filippo Scaccabarozzi
St. Cunegonda's Hospital . Via della Lebbra 23 00186 Rome Italy.

Bradford concludes;

I'm afraid to inform you Dan and Peter, but John Nash had a very bad case of this as an actual historical fact. When you ask us to Test if Steiner's theories are correct, you have no idea what is in the future of I AM cognition, having only been schooled in failed Dialectical Materialism. We test Dr. Steiner every hour we live. Dan would like a form of dialectical materialism to spread so that children remain learning 'politically correct' lies and are unable to think. You Peter, have severed yourself from your own soul-heart region, even though anyone can still perform unconsciously the basic left over goodness in the instincts. However this will not last. You are clinging to a sinking ship.

John Nash and a "Beautiful Mind" is a living case in point of everything Steiner indicated in the above diagnosis. This Shadow has grown in you to such a degree, Peter, that it sits directly next to you and waits, spider like, to play, THE DIALECTICAL GAME of drying up your own etheric residue of greatness. This is a grave, grave danger and I can only say, in your profound unconscious slumber, that another Loaf of Bread is cooking and you still are snoring.

Bradford

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:46 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Don Pedro's Trial

So sue us, we can use the publicity.

No, Dan said that, not me. I did, however, suggest that separation of church and state, on which PLANS' lawsuit is based, should be embraced by anthroposophists because it protects them too.

Diana

Sorry to have miquoted you, Diana. I would agree with you about the separation of church and state if I agreed that anthropsophy is a church or a state, which I certainly do not.

Frank

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From: at
Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Don Pedro

Hi Dottie, you wrote:

What I find really interesting is that you just had four people show you to another translation of the German expression that speaks differently than yours. What do you attribute this to? Is it an anthro problem in your mind?

Peter Staudenmaier:

No, I don't think it's an anthro problem. As you can see, a number of anthroposophists agree with my reading and disagree with Detlef's.

Daniel:

Sorry to drag the whole "nichts weniger als" issue up again. Who beyond Ralf Sonnenberg supports your reading of that passage

Daniel Hindes

Don Pedro 2

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