Havah/Eve

 

From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:45 am
Subject: Havah/Eve

Hi Everyone,

In contemplating my classes I am struck by how the different theological streams have come about their interpretations regarding the Feminine.

I find that Lilith is spoken of before the Fall, in that She and Adam were one, male and female. Then after the split we have the two seperated and we now have the daughter so to speak whom we call Eve who is also the Mother.

In the tradition of my Rabbi it seems, and of course makes absolute sense to me, as I have been contemplating this for about three or four years now, that it is indeed Eve who reached up and grabbed knowledge beings we had fallen in the first place.

In the Kabbalah tradition it is the woman who is considered the one to have taken up the challenge of being God's children in his image; down to the point of wanting to know oneself outside of what was already known. And in order to ascend we must descend first.

Havah, the Hebrew name for Eve, actually means Birth Giver of all, and not in a condescending way. The Rabbi says it was a horrible translation from Judiasm to Christianity where Eve now becomes synominous with Evil. And this has me wondering where it all went astray? How is it from the Aramaic language to Greek we end up with such twisted interpretations that have led us further into the Fall. Now, it may have had to have happened but that does not mean the Fall has to continue any further down in our society.

In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold Mary I come to an understanding that what we are truly looking forward to bringing is the Feminine as that is the wisest part of whom we are. What has happened is we continue to fall without realizing why that is and what it has to do with what we have been following for over three thousand years.

Another book I just bought by Sergei O. Prokofieff called The Heavenly Sophia and the Being Anthroposophia speaks of Micael as being the Mightiest Son of Sophia. Just from contemplating before reading, I find my self thinking back to Christine's words about Anthroposophia being the Daughter of something. Which leads me to this Being possibly being the Daughter of Sophia. Which of course plays right into my hands of the Daughter Voice of God and so forth. I guess this remains to be researched and contemplated further but I am wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this Being of Anthroposophia and her, for she is noted at being a her, way of being?

Mr. Prokofieff speaks to the idea that we can not hold this Being as an abstract or poetic image. And this leads me to wonder what the reputation of this Mr. Prokofieff is among the Anthroposophists.

Lastly I would like to share a thought I have been thinking about this last week. It seems that in the beginning we were male and female before the physical body came into being. The Jews do not recognize Christ as the Messiah. And the time they think the Messiah is going to appear is from now and up to two hundred years from now. When I look at this and contemplate it seems to me we are missing what they are waiting for. And it seems in a way we have no idea what it could be because we think they have already missed the coming of the Messiah. Looking at the aspect that is making a reappearance right now I would have to say it is the Feminine. Who are they waiting for? And wouldn't it be funny if we both end up with half of the equation and negating what the other has found.

This book on Mary by Mr. Bock is just perfect for understanding where we have been misled and how that may still affect us if we fail to course correct within our souls the new/old learnings of the Feminine. He's just really beautiful in this book.

Happy Sunday,
Dottie

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:52 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Havah/Eve

In a message dated 2/15/2004 2:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, dottie_z writes:

In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold Mary I come to an

EXCUSE ME????!!!!???? WHERE IS THIS BOOK AND WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT BEFORE AND WHERE CAN I GET IT AND ....DOTTIE!!!!! (major whine here).

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:53 am
Subject: Re: Havah/Eve

Dottie wrote:

I find that Lilith is spoken of before the Fall, in that She and Adam were one, male and female. Then after the split we have the two seperated and we now have the daughter so to speak whom we call Eve who is also the Mother.

Dottie

Sorry. A point I missed when writing this or at least trying to pull it together to make some kind of sense of my thoughts is the idea inspired by my Rabbi that Time created space in our realm. I do not know if this follows Dr. Steiner or whathave you however my point is that Lilith would be the point of reference for this Time bound realms creation in a sense and this is why I believe we see the Goddesses as Black: they represent the Time bound realms way of leaving this life which is death. So, death would be considered a bad thing by a certain point in time hence the demonizing of Lilith who was originally noted as being the Birth Mother.

Dottie

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:58 am
Subject: Re: Havah/Eve

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, golden3000997 wrote:

In a message dated 2/15/2004 2:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, dottie_z writes:

In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold Mary I come to an

EXCUSE ME????!!!!???? WHERE IS THIS BOOK AND WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT BEFORE AND WHERE CAN I GET IT AND ....DOTTIE!!!!! (major whine here).

Dottie

I know isn't it amazing!!! It is a very small book on a three lecture series. Anyhow wait until you read it.

I keep having this wonderful experience of going to the Rudolf Steiner Book Store. This time I had an amazing conversation, real one in physical terms versus internet where I do not have to worry about him misunderstanding me or checking out my ridiculous grammatical errors, and we are or he is going to pull together an Occult Science study group. He liked me very much and I was able to have a real conversation!!Whoohoo! I was so happy at the end. And I got to pace myself and agh, it was great.

Do you have the other book I mentioned? If not I think this is going to be a good book.

Happy Sunday Again,

Dottie...

p.s. can you email me again your address off line as I somehow deleted it and have this little package to send:)

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:01 pm
Subject: Re: Havah/Eve

Christine wrote:

In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold Mary I come to an

EXCUSE ME????!!!!???? WHERE IS THIS BOOK AND WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT BEFORE AND WHERE CAN I GET IT AND ....DOTTIE!!!!! (major whine here).

Oh I forgot, I just got it yesterday. I am finished already and can send it if you want. (a few tipped corners however;)

d

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From: golden3000997@cs.com
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Havah/Eve

Thank you!!! : )

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:08 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Havah/Eve

Dottie:

This book on Mary by Mr. Bock is just perfect for understanding where we have been misled and how that may still affect us if we fail to course correct within our souls the new/old learnings of the Feminine. He's just really beautiful in this book.

Hi Everyone,

What seems to be holding me these days is the idea that we were led even further into the Fall in order to ascend. Bock makes a good point about how the churches were involved in this each time but how their new 'laws' so to speak ended up beng the way that led us closer to the truth but in a way that leads us around a spiral of sorts that ascends upwards after it has gone downwards for a period of time. I think it is really amazing.

I remember one time hearing or rather reading that a former student or admirer of Dr. Steiner called his group the students of Lucifer or something similar. Looking at his past incarnations even unto Saint Thomas one can see where some of his proclomations may have fit the day but not today, we have moved on from such thinking specifically of the Feminine. It's almost like we have to keep experiencing all the worst we can be in order to really get all the sparks the Rabbi keeps talking about. And looking in on this point I keep coming back to what Magdalene represents as an earthy figure and how her redemption is a key piece of our humanity. She is the epitome of the Christ experience for everyday people.

I wonder how the spiral works? Is it downward all the way and then up or is it in the figure 8s way of spiraling?

My thoughts,
Dottie

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