Havah/Eve
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:45 am
Subject: Havah/Eve
Hi Everyone,
In contemplating my classes I am struck by
how the different theological streams have come about their interpretations
regarding the Feminine.
I find that Lilith is spoken of before the
Fall, in that She and Adam were one, male and female. Then after
the split we have the two seperated and we now have the daughter
so to speak whom we call Eve who is also the Mother.
In the tradition of my Rabbi it seems, and
of course makes absolute sense to me, as I have been contemplating
this for about three or four years now, that it is indeed Eve
who reached up and grabbed knowledge beings we had fallen in
the first place.
In the Kabbalah tradition it is the woman
who is considered the one to have taken up the challenge of being
God's children in his image; down to the point of wanting to
know oneself outside of what was already known. And in order
to ascend we must descend first.
Havah, the Hebrew name for Eve, actually means
Birth Giver of all, and not in a condescending way. The Rabbi
says it was a horrible translation from Judiasm to Christianity
where Eve now becomes synominous with Evil. And this has me wondering
where it all went astray? How is it from the Aramaic language
to Greek we end up with such twisted interpretations that have
led us further into the Fall. Now, it may have had to have happened
but that does not mean the Fall has to continue any further down
in our society.
In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold
Mary I come to an understanding that what we are truly looking
forward to bringing is the Feminine as that is the wisest part
of whom we are. What has happened is we continue to fall without
realizing why that is and what it has to do with what we have
been following for over three thousand years.
Another book I just bought by Sergei O. Prokofieff
called The Heavenly Sophia and the Being Anthroposophia speaks
of Micael as being the Mightiest Son of Sophia. Just from contemplating
before reading, I find my self thinking back to Christine's words
about Anthroposophia being the Daughter of something. Which leads
me to this Being possibly being the Daughter of Sophia. Which
of course plays right into my hands of the Daughter Voice of
God and so forth. I guess this remains to be researched and contemplated
further but I am wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on
this Being of Anthroposophia and her, for she is noted at being
a her, way of being?
Mr. Prokofieff speaks to the idea that we
can not hold this Being as an abstract or poetic image. And this
leads me to wonder what the reputation of this Mr. Prokofieff
is among the Anthroposophists.
Lastly I would like to share a thought I have
been thinking about this last week. It seems that in the beginning
we were male and female before the physical body came into being.
The Jews do not recognize Christ as the Messiah. And the time
they think the Messiah is going to appear is from now and up
to two hundred years from now. When I look at this and contemplate
it seems to me we are missing what they are waiting for. And
it seems in a way we have no idea what it could be because we
think they have already missed the coming of the Messiah. Looking
at the aspect that is making a reappearance right now I would
have to say it is the Feminine. Who are they waiting for? And
wouldn't it be funny if we both end up with half of the equation
and negating what the other has found.
This book on Mary by Mr. Bock is just perfect
for understanding where we have been misled and how that may
still affect us if we fail to course correct within our souls
the new/old learnings of the Feminine. He's just really beautiful
in this book.
Happy Sunday,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:52 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Havah/Eve
In a message dated 2/15/2004 2:49:03 PM Eastern
Standard Time, dottie_z writes:
In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold
Mary I come to an
EXCUSE ME????!!!!???? WHERE IS THIS BOOK AND
WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT BEFORE AND WHERE CAN I GET IT
AND ....DOTTIE!!!!! (major whine here).
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:53 am
Subject: Re: Havah/Eve
Dottie wrote:
I find that Lilith is spoken of before
the Fall, in that She and Adam were one, male and female. Then
after the split we have the two seperated and we now have the
daughter so to speak whom we call Eve who is also the Mother.
Dottie
Sorry. A point I missed when writing this
or at least trying to pull it together to make some kind of sense
of my thoughts is the idea inspired by my Rabbi that Time created
space in our realm. I do not know if this follows Dr. Steiner
or whathave you however my point is that Lilith would be the
point of reference for this Time bound realms creation in a sense
and this is why I believe we see the Goddesses as Black: they
represent the Time bound realms way of leaving this life which
is death. So, death would be considered a bad thing by a certain
point in time hence the demonizing of Lilith who was originally
noted as being the Birth Mother.
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:58 am
Subject: Re: Havah/Eve
--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
golden3000997 wrote:
In a message dated 2/15/2004 2:49:03 PM
Eastern Standard Time, dottie_z writes:
In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold
Mary I come to an
EXCUSE ME????!!!!???? WHERE IS THIS BOOK
AND WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT BEFORE AND WHERE CAN I GET
IT AND ....DOTTIE!!!!! (major whine here).
Dottie
I know isn't it amazing!!! It is a very small
book on a three lecture series. Anyhow wait until you read it.
I keep having this wonderful experience of
going to the Rudolf Steiner Book Store. This time I had an amazing
conversation, real one in physical terms versus internet where
I do not have to worry about him misunderstanding me or checking
out my ridiculous grammatical errors, and we are or he is going
to pull together an Occult Science study group. He liked me very
much and I was able to have a real conversation!!Whoohoo! I was
so happy at the end. And I got to pace myself and agh, it was
great.
Do you have the other book I mentioned? If
not I think this is going to be a good book.
Happy Sunday Again,
Dottie...
p.s. can you email me again your address off
line as I somehow deleted it and have this little package to
send:)
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:01 pm
Subject: Re: Havah/Eve
Christine wrote:
In looking at Emil Bock's book The Threefold
Mary I come to an
EXCUSE ME????!!!!???? WHERE IS THIS BOOK
AND WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT BEFORE AND WHERE CAN I GET
IT AND ....DOTTIE!!!!! (major whine here).
Oh I forgot, I just got it yesterday. I am
finished already and can send it if you want. (a few tipped corners
however;)
d
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997@cs.com
Date: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Havah/Eve
Thank you!!! : )
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:08 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Havah/Eve
Dottie:
This book on Mary by Mr. Bock is just perfect
for understanding where we have been misled and how that may
still affect us if we fail to course correct within our souls
the new/old learnings of the Feminine. He's just really beautiful
in this book.
Hi Everyone,
What seems to be holding me these days is
the idea that we were led even further into the Fall in order
to ascend. Bock makes a good point about how the churches were
involved in this each time but how their new 'laws' so to speak
ended up beng the way that led us closer to the truth but in
a way that leads us around a spiral of sorts that ascends upwards
after it has gone downwards for a period of time. I think it
is really amazing.
I remember one time hearing or rather reading
that a former student or admirer of Dr. Steiner called his group
the students of Lucifer or something similar. Looking at his
past incarnations even unto Saint Thomas one can see where some
of his proclomations may have fit the day but not today, we have
moved on from such thinking specifically of the Feminine. It's
almost like we have to keep experiencing all the worst we can
be in order to really get all the sparks the Rabbi keeps talking
about. And looking in on this point I keep coming back to what
Magdalene represents as an earthy figure and how her redemption
is a key piece of our humanity. She is the epitome of the Christ
experience for everyday people.
I wonder how the spiral works? Is it downward
all the way and then up or is it in the figure 8s way of spiraling?
My thoughts,
Dottie
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