agreement and disagreement 2

...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...


From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:22 pm
Subject: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

In a message dated 2/25/2004 1:58:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, pstauden writes:

Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] agreement and disagreement
Date: 2/25/2004 1:58:25 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Peter Staudenmaier

Hi Christine,

Try to keep in mind that there are a number of self-proclaimed racists out there who appreciate and promote Steiner's racial theories precisely because they see these theories as compatible with their own racist worldviews.

WHO?????

For starters, there's the 1999 pamphlet "Rudolph Steiner & the Mystique of Blood and Soil: The Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy" from New Zealand; you can find extensive excerpts from it at the waldorf critics list archive, in a message from Dan Dugan on August 11, 2002, subject heading "racist pamphlet from NZ neo-nazi". (The pamphlet also contains a fair bit of material on Steiner's views on Jews.)

Peter

Well, Mr. Staudenmeier,

I have been researching the author of the above pamphlet (who you couldn't or wouldn't even name in your response to my question.)

1. You have cited ONE author, not "a number of self-proclaimed racists"

2. The author's name is Kerry Bolton. He is not only a self-proclaimed Neo-Nazi of a terribly vocal and vociferous kind. He has quite a number of articles posted all over the web, mostly on Satanist websites. Mr. Kerry Bolton is also a self-proclaimed Satanist. Not one of the articles that I have read so far by Mr. Bolton references or names Rudolf Steiner in any way shape or form UNTIL

3. The pamphlet above, which I have not yet found in its entirety. But I did find the review below and in it, a very interesting phenomenon:

You said above,

...they see these theories as compatible with their own racist worldviews.

If this booklet quotes from Biehl & Staudenmeier, then it came out AFTER your article, not before - you can't use it as an example of work from which your theories arise or a source which independently supports your theories. You can say that Mr. Bolton likes your theories and lends his support to them, but not that his work contains any research of his own which supports your suppositions.

ANTHROPOSOPHY TOMORROW ALERT!!! ROSE NOIR = BLACK ROSE!!

(My brackets & bold below for emphasis)

http://www.rosenoire.org/reviews/bolton-rudolph.php

Rudolph Steiner
& the Mystique of Blood and Soil
The Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy
By Kerry Bolton
Reviewed by Troy Southgate

Rudolf Steiner & The Mystique of Blood & Soil: The Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy by Kerry Bolton. Available from Renaissance Press, P.O.

Box 1627, Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand. Paper cover, 16pp. Price $NZ20 inc. postage.

HAVING studied H.P. Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine to a certain extent, as well as the development and significance of the Theosophical Society, I for one was particularly pleased to receive a booklet on Steiner. I had, for some time, rather dismissively regarded this individual as being little more than a guru of the liberal New Age Movement. It now appears that Steiner not only had much in common with Blavatsky's own pronouncements concerning the root races of mankind but also took things one step further by openly alluding to the inherent differences between them.

Kerry Bolton unearths Steiner's links to the philosophical elite and men like Goethe, Herder, Haeckel and Nietzsche, following the biological thread of racialism through to the very beginnings of Ariosophy and Franz von Liebenfels' New Templars. Steiner's thoughts on Race and the unique qualities of the Aryan psyche are explored in depth, with the author quoting at some length from works such as The Destinies of Individuals and of Nations [1915], Materialism and the Task of Athroposophy [1921], Spiritual Science As a Foundation for Social Forms [1920] and many others. Steiner himself is shown to have worked alongside Austrian nationalists promoting folkish unity; to have emphasised the Nordic Race as the perfect expression of mankind and the one bearing the most potential for the ongoing process of biological evolution; to have developed a planetary system alluding to the innate qualities of each race; and to have warned against racial miscegenation and the loss of Aryan Man's spiritual potential.

[The Third Reich, however, denounced Steiner's teachings], although it was probably wary of his growing influence. The author points out that, at the same time, many Nazi luminaries - among them Rudolf Hess and those in the NSDAP's ecological wing such as Siefert, Ludovici, Haase and Walther Darre himself - began to warm to his ideas, particularly as the Anthroposophists have always been committed to organic farming techniques.

[Finally, just to re-emphasise the effect that Steiner's work has had on racial nationalism and the concept of Blood and Soil, Bolton quotes from Biehl & Staudenmaier's Ecofascism: Lessons From the German Experience, which speaks of Anthroposophy thus: "This ideology mixes bizarre racialist spiritual theory (which somewhat unsurprisingly concludes that European whites are at the hierarchical scale of humanity) with concepts such as 'biodynamic farming', a form of organic agriculture which tries to foster a more organic relationship between cultivator and soil."]

This booklet is very well researched and essential if one is to understand the broad significance of our racial and spiritual heritage.

http://www.rosenoire.org/index.php

This is the extent of the knowable at present: there is the Self, and there is the Other. Between both terms lies the continuum which constitutes the playground and battleground of Life. And on these fields we plant our black roses...

[SYNTHESIS] is an irregularly-published intellectual and cultural journal devoted to Anarchy (the preservation of the Anarch [or Sovereign Individual] in all aspects of life and the possibility of multi-level realities), Occulture (the appreciation and understanding of the Esoteric nature of Life and Culture), and Metapolitics (a rejection of trivial party politics and an interest in global aims, as well as a political belief in grand plans and projects with an anti-Humanist streak). Our aim is to explore key figures such as Ernst Juenger, Michael Bakunin, Julius Evola, Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, Jean Parvulesco, Friedrich Nietzsche, Aleister Crowley, Otto Strasser, Miguel Serrano, Ernst Niekisch, Jean-Francois Thiriart, R.A. Schwaller de Lubitz, Sergei Nechayev, Savitri Devi, Austin Osman Spare, Richard Walther Darre, Alexander Dugin, Karl Haushofer, Arthur Machen, Rene Guenon, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Francis Parker Yockey, H.P. Lovecraft, and Friederich Hielscher.

In order to expedite future updates and the process whereby we make them known, we have created a Yahoo Groups announcement-only list expressly for announcing updates.
· Go to the ROSE-NOIRE Yahoo Group site.
· Subscribe directly to the ROSE-NOIRE Yahoo Group.

National-Anarchism is the political weltanschauung - or, perhaps, scalpel blade - of the Circle de la Rose Noire. Contribute to the ongoing dialogue and receive notice of updates to this site by subscribing to the National-Anarchist E-List.

SYNTHESIS staff work on a voluntary basis. You can help expedite future updates and improve the quality of this website by making a donation, and have your name added to our Honor Roll of contributors. Click here to find out how.

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi Christine, you wrote:

You have cited ONE author, not "a number of self-proclaimed racists"

Yes, that's how examples work. Would you like more examples?

The author's name is Kerry Bolton.

I think that is very likely true, but the pamphlet (I have a copy) does not list an author.

I did find the review below

Yes, that review is by Troy Southgate. I posted the very same thing to the waldorf critics list on May 16, 2002.

If this booklet quotes from Biehl & Staudenmeier, then it came out AFTER your article, not before

The book I co-authored with Janet Biehl was published in 1995. My first article on anthroposophy was published in 2000.

[The Third Reich, however, denounced Steiner's teachings]

The Nazis also denounced ariosophy. Do you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically with Nazism?

Peter

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From: golden3000997
Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:44 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

In a message dated 3/1/2004 11:11:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, pstauden writes:

Hi Christine, you wrote:

You have cited ONE author, not "a number of self-proclaimed racists"

Yes, that's how examples work. Would you like more examples?

Yes, please!! (Christine)

The author's name is Kerry Bolton.

I think that is very likely true, but the pamphlet (I have a copy) does not list an author.

How did you get the copy? Did you buy it from an internet source? I can't find it uploaded anywhere.

Did you upload the whole article on WC? If not, would you please either post it or forward it to me personally? Thanks! (Christine)

I did find the review below

Yes, that review is by Troy Southgate. I posted the very same thing to the waldorf critics list on May 16, 2002.

If this booklet quotes from Biehl & Staudenmeier, then it came out AFTER your article, not before

The book I co-authored with Janet Biehl was published in 1995. My first article on anthroposophy was published in 2000.

Thank you for the info. Does the pamphlet you are referring to have the date of publication on it? It is puzzling that it doesn't have a name on it. What is the exact title of the pamphlet you have? Is it the same title as the one reviewed by Troy Southgate? (Christine)

[The Third Reich, however, denounced Steiner's teachings]

The Nazis also denounced ariosophy. Do you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically with Nazism?

I have no conclusions about what ariosophy had in "common ideologically" with Nazism. I am trying to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common ideologically with Nazism. Perhaps the other references you give me by other "self-proclaimed Nazis" will help with this. Thanks. (Christine)

Peter

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:18 pm
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

----- Original Message -----
From: golden3000997
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

In a message dated 3/1/2004 11:11:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, pstauden writes:

[The Nazis] also denounced ariosophy. Do you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically with Nazism?

I have no conclusions about what ariosophy had in "common ideologically" with Nazism. I am trying to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common ideologically with Nazism.

Dear Christiue,

Ariosophy was the basic sistem of beliefs of the early Nazi bosses that were former followers of Thule Geselleschaft. (See Goodrick Clarke and others). When the nazis changed from a little party till to become the State itself , they " put in a corner" some of the old Ariosophy's gurus, like Lanz or Glauer (alias Von Sebottendorff) , who died in Turkey in 1945. It's easy to undserstand why. Glauer, for instance has been writing a "Before Hitler came" book just dedicated to explain the occult roots of Nazi beliefs . PS' tricky answer about it is one of his typical way to shuffle the cards on the table and it's a way to give not answers at all. Rabbit's escape.

If you have a look at what I have been posting a couple of days ago about the flight of Hess to UK you'll find also that the link between Ariosophy and English non-christian occultism is one of the keys that helps us to grasp the core of the occult events behind WWII.

A.

I am trying to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common ideologically with Nazism. Perhaps the other references you give me by other "self-proclaimed Nazis" will help with this. Thanks. (Christine)

Peter

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:53 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

[The Third Reich, however, denounced Steiner's teachings]

The Nazis also denounced ariosophy. Do you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically with Nazism?

Peter

*False syllogisms abound: The Nazis denounced Steiner's teachings; the Nazis denounced ariosophy; therefore Steiners teachings and ariosophy are similar.

Frank

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:34 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi again Frank, you wrote:

False syllogisms abound: The Nazis denounced Steiner's teachings; the Nazis denounced ariosophy;therefore Steiners teachings and ariosophy are similar.

That would indeed be an obviously false syllogism. Since nobody here has advanced this argument, or anything like it, I don't see what it has to do with our discussion.

Peter

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:07 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi, Peter,

It has everything to do with the discussion. It referred (ironically, admitted) to your previous statement, which you conveniently snipped.

Frank

Hi again Frank, you wrote:

False syllogisms abound: The Nazis denounced Steiner's teachings; the Nazis denounced ariosophy;therefore Steiners teachings and ariosophy are similar.

That would indeed be an obviously false syllogism. Since nobody here has advanced this argument, or anything like it, I don't see what it has to do with our discussion.

Peter

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:09 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi Christine, you wrote:

Yes, please!!

Okay, here are more examples of contemporary racists who have endorsed or promoted Steiner's racial doctrines: From the 1980's, a small ariosophical group calling itself Die Armanenschaft, which drew significantly on Steiner's teachings (see Eduard Gugenberger and Roman Schweidlenka, Mutter Erde - Magie und Politik, Vienna 1987, p. 245). From the 1980's and 1990's, a similar outfit going by the name Armanen-Orden (motto: "Aryans of all lands, unite!"), which advertises and sells Steiner's works on race (see Franziska Hundseder, Wotans Jünger: Neuheidnische Gruppen zwischen Esoterik und Rechtsradikalismus, Munich 1998, pp. 126-129). From the 1990's there's Dieter Rüggeberg, one of the more infamous far-right conspiracy theorists in Germany, who relies heavily on selected works by Steiner and also advertises and sells them. Not to mention friendly folks like Andreas Ferch, a protege of Werner Georg Haverbeck.

How did you get the copy? Did you buy it from an internet source?

Dan Dugan sent me a photocopy of the pamphlet, which he bought online.

would you please either post it or forward it to me personally?

I'd be happy to mail you a copy. You can give me your address offlist (I'm at pstauden@yahoo.de).

Does the pamphlet you are referring to have the date of publication on it?

Yes, the copyright page says "1999 Renaissance Press".

What is the exact title of the pamphlet you have?

Rudolf Steiner & The Mystique of Blood & Soil: The Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy.

I have no conclusions about what ariosophy had in "common ideologically" with Nazism. I am trying to establish what Anthroposophy did or did not have in "common ideologically with Nazism. Perhaps the other references you give me by other "self-proclaimed Nazis" will help with this.

They shouldn't help with this. If they do, then I think you're approaching this backwards. To determine what anthroposophy might have had in common ideologically with Nazism, it makes more sense to look directly at anthroposophical doctrine and at Nazi ideology, rather than taking a detour through later commentaries on the two. Texts like the New Zealand pamphlet are not reliable sources on the matter. All they show is that some latter-day racists appreciate Steiner's racial doctrines, which is why I mentioned that fact in the midst of my discussion with Tarjei; if terms like "racism" were nothing more than a moral cudgel, it would be difficult to explain pamphlets like this one.

Peter

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Peter:

Okay, here are more examples of contemporary racists who have endorsed or promoted Steiner's racial doctrines: From the 1980's, a small ariosophical group calling itself Die Armanenschaft, which drew significantly on Steiner's teachings (see Eduard Gugenberger and Roman Schweidlenka, Mutter Erde - Magie und Politik, Vienna 1987, p. 245). From the 1980's and 1990's, a similar outfit going by the name Armanen-Orden (motto: "Aryans of all lands, unite!"), which advertises and sells Steiner's works on race (see Franziska Hundseder, Wotans Jünger: Neuheidnische Gruppen zwischen Esoterik und Rechtsradikalismus, Munich 1998, pp. 126-129). From the 1990's there's Dieter Rüggeberg, one of the more infamous far-right conspiracy theorists in Germany, who relies heavily on selected works by Steiner and also advertises and sells them. Not to mention friendly folks like Andreas Ferch, a protege of Werner Georg Haverbeck.

Dottie:

So once again we have you trying to blame Steiner for how others have perceived his work. Do you percieve any of the listmates or any of the wc mates you have been in discussion with over the years take his work as in the manner above? If not what do you attribute this too? Do you want to blame Dr. Steiner for these twisted perceptions?

And Steiner students would be the first to say how whacked your perception is of his works as well as those above you have stated show your studies to be on the right path. You seem to be holding some pretty ugly company in the way you discern a thing. I wonder what is up with that? I mean your interpretations seem to be similar to those you mention above. That's quite interesting.

Dottie

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi Dottie, you wrote:

So once again we have you trying to blame Steiner for how others have perceived his work.

No, that is not my argument. It makes no sense to blame a long-dead author for what other people do with his work many years later. I've explained this to you several times. Is there anything confusing about it?

Peter

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:24 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Dottie:

So once again we have you trying to blame Steiner for how others have perceived his work.

Peter:

No, that is not my argument. It makes no sense to blame a long-dead author for what other people do with his work many years later.

Peter, it is all you have to go on. Without other people twisting his teachings to fit their own world, view as you as well have done, there would be nothing else. His students work hard as you can see by this list to understand the world and its origins. These are people trying to make a difference in the world and to be aware of the difference they make.

And I also recognize you have moved into step two of your debating ways: the what is it you do not understand mode. Wow, that was pretty cool. Kind of like the Peter Staudenmaier 6 week experiement. I guess that is a thing that is taught to people who debate in the manner you do; disregard anything anyone else has to say about the subject you have already committed too and then begin the 'what don't you understand part.' Very interesting.

The split from the intellect and emotion realm of who we are as spiritual beings is where the downfall is Peter. And Dr. Steiner pointed to it in the post I left earlier in regards to Hegel. And we split from that emotional realm for some specific reason that leads us to pure intellect that turns inwards on itself as yours has. You only see what you know to be true and all you look for can only reveal that for then you would be a liar. And that you are not willing to admit to for the deck of cards would scatter in the wind and you would have to start all over. What a manchian task that would be ey?

But the question is where did it all start? At what point in time did you find the need or desire to go purely without any kind of spiritual reality in as far as something more than us? Where did it all go askew? And what would happen if there indeed was a greater reality than the one we live in? Would you lose control of who you are? Would that mean your life wasn't your own? What would that mean to you Peter? What is it that you are unwilling to let go of? What is it that keeps riding you to this untruthful path you have embarked on within and without? What are the true questions of your person Peter? Not that of others but of you? What is your truth?

You can try and look at the outer parts of Dr. Steiners work and try to make some sense of it but it does not work that way. You have made a grave mistake thinking that ARIOSOPHY was similar to Dr. Steiners Anthroposophy. Did you find that group first and then found Dr. STeiners group? Why is it that on the critics you originally played that Goodrich Clarke was the place to check in order to really get a good grip on how Dr. Steiners ideology played a part of Nazism. And now you call Goodrich Clarke biased towards Steiner. So are the Jews now what? They love him did you know that? They recognize a Rabbi when they see one for he is that in the truest sense of the word.

You comment that others bring in your political orientation to get away from the Steiner racist things and so forth, and nothing could be further than the truth. Stop hiding behind it. It is important and your personal world view and the way you have interpreted Steiner's work shows this to be true.

You are so way off Peter and my Rabbi confirms it for me through his teachings.

Dottie

Want to get into a real conversation Peter? Try it you might like it or that might be too much of a commitment for you.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

Okay, here are more examples of contemporary racists who have endorsed or promoted Steiner's racial doctrines: From the 1980's, a small ariosophical group calling itself Die Armanenschaft, which drew significantly on Steiner's teachings (see Eduard Gugenberger and Roman Schweidlenka, Mutter Erde - Magie und Politik, Vienna 1987, p. 245). From the 1980's and 1990's, a similar outfit going by the name Armanen-Orden (motto: "Aryans of all lands, unite!"), which advertises and sells Steiner's works on race (see Franziska Hundseder, Wotans Jünger: Neuheidnische Gruppen zwischen Esoterik und Rechtsradikalismus, Munich 1998, pp. 126-129). From the 1990's there's Dieter Rüggeberg, one of the more infamous far-right conspiracy theorists in Germany, who relies heavily on selected works by Steiner and also advertises and sells them. Not to mention friendly folks like Andreas Ferch, a protege of Werner Georg Haverbeck.

Bradford comments;

There was recently a wonderful example from Drudge, a rumor spread that Kerry had an affair. The media jumped all over it, but it was false, it was a dog that wouldn't hunt. It was placed there, as fact, reality and a detour to a real life game with very high stakes.

In Sports, and Frank I thought you could help me out here, there is such a thing as a "Ringer". These ringers go all the way down to virus and cell imitators and can be highly qualifed and gifted bowlers or baseball subs that outweigh and overbalance the team. In Tennis putting an 'A' game sub to play in a 'C' match is an example of a ringer. Ringers are an interesting term and and below are words that reflect the reality and quality of ringers.

Entry: alternate
Function: noun
Definition: substitute
Synonyms: backup, double, equivalent, fill-in, proxy, replacement, stand-in, sub, surrogate
Antonyms: original
Concept: equivalence

Entry: substitute
Function: noun
Definition: alternative
Synonyms: agent, alternate, assistant, auxiliary, backup, changeling, delegate, deputy, dernier ressort, double, dummy, equivalent, expediency, expedient, fill-in, ghost, ghost writer, locum, locum tenens, makeshift, pinch-hitter, procurator, proxy, recourse, refuge, relay, relief, replacement, representative, reserve, resort, resource, ringer, stand-by, stand-in, stopgap, sub,succedaneum, successor, supplanter, supply, surrogate, symbol, temp, temporary, temporary expedient, understudy, vicar
Concept: imitation

Bradford concludes;

Now days we cannot be sure if Terrorist actions are really wrought by terrorists as claimed by the U.S. The Anthrax attack in America was really an in house affair because we could trace the origin of the type of Anthrax almost as if it had a bar code or time dated signature. So exactly what is my point here? My point is this.

Character Assassination and manipulation of either pamphlets or inflammatory intellecutal attacks, creation of extremist and isolated groups, (many have been proven to be covers, such as the Palme CIA cover company and Timothy McVeigh paramilitary groups) infiltrate various areas where Free Thought is considered dangerous ground. These covertly directed groups have fostered some of the most intense attacks in order to penetrate 'cells' where people think, act, and have, (Oh for instance) an international school movement that is superior to public education, and remains as a sizzling danger to general Ahrimanic agenda. Many groups are closely monitored by those entities that consider such things dangerous.

The unfolding of "Ringers" and "Hackers" has grown from McCarthyism and the Red Scare tactics of J.Edgar Hoover and the wonderful, but very in your face Hitler Youth. Yet we have failed to monitor how such thought police have infiltrated our own consciousness.

Why Tarjei and many of us are looking at the thinking parameters that Steiner gets lumped with, such as superheated sound bytes like ANTISEMITISM, is because it appears that the line of defense is being built for divisions along deep seated racial lines that are not consciously ackowledged conspiracy driven activities by those engaged. Now here the question becomes tricky. I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

What I do believe in is super Archai extended and deeply rooted dispositions and motives in the very will forces of humanity. I am of the opinion that the history of Racism and Richard Wagner's poor showing on Racism, was picked up and became driven theories behind the birth of Nazism. Call it ARIOSOPHY, call it the FINAL SOLUTION. Wagner had a karma with unresolved massive folk and Celtic pictures as well as genetically manipulated and subconsciouly rooted race, angelic and incarnation gifts. Wagner was the very big moving Target for forces to build a case based solidly on Racial misconceptions. Wagner had enormous karma in this realm.

What has arisen in terms of SPIN today rides unconsciously in most souls living in our time. For most everybody there is no boogy man called Ahriman. Ahriman did not nest in Nietzsche's diseased brain. The spawned friendship between Wagner and Nietzsche was of no account. The Race Card remains as just something one catches sight of in ones education along with God is Dead. But there is no integrated history and certainly no hidden Ahrimanic, massive, collective set of beings infiltrating the thought fields of millions of souls. There is no conspiracy. I mean there is no agreed upon, and conscious conspiracy. It is really people with sincere axes and sometimes karmic agendas to grind that play themselves out in the world.

It is easy to show that News is manipulated; that groups are covers; that hackers are working in the government and interfere in the internet from out of the Poindexter School; and that computer viruses mimic..and the mimic aspect of what we consider straight forward terrorism has been simplified for the stupid, or "Terrorism for Dummies", is fostered from the school of George Bush school of Neocon idiots.

In other words, in the 5th Post Atlantean Epoch we learn that things are not always what they seem. We learn about self deception, spin, dysfunction and corruption in high places as well as in ourselves. But one man's corruption is another man's sincerity. In other words, by not being conscious of the shadowy subtext of the human being, various STREAMS OF THINKING attract themselves to you or are repelled by you. In this attraction and repelling field, naturally no non-visible beings exist within the layers of the soul. Therefore there are no conspiracies.

To conclude; Ringers of ideologies and Ideologies themselves are just cancerous pockets and clubs of beliefs, soul realms, layers of uncharted being, where the variety of emotional and mental maturity varies. We are able to name and chart these fragmented soul and thinking constructs. We can understand Fundamentalism in misdirected masses and more or less concentrated doses or benign collections of various ideoologies that collect like lint on our cultural body or maybe we could say form like pond scum in the intellectual soul. Yet, to strap oneself with a bomb and enter a mall with souls blissfully feeling the Christimas Spirit and exploding oneself reveals a fixed and fatal, unchecked, malignant ideology.

The world has moved to a place where innocent questions, or innocent children or innocent ideologies are no longer innocent but collect votes, are huge voting blocks, or focus sharp knives of heated prejudice, exactly where there was none before. This brings swirling public opinion attracted to over heated sound bytes like ANTISEMITISM. Hate groups can martial a whole set of "Ringers" and sound bytes and spin have become a science. Those in the riots or demonstrations against the IMF or WTO have witnessed infiltration in order to bring violence where there was none.

"Ringers" in ideologies are playing in a layer of intellectual soul deceptions that are far more complex than those gathered in 'Rick's' bar in the film "Casablanca". To be conscious of what feeds your motives, drives ambitions and fuels your ideologies means that you break with your own driven instincts and view humanity from a different perspective. Don't try this at home kids.

This is a 5th Post Atlantean mandatory Initiation experienc. Motives are real. As real as guns. They are Weapons of Mass Deception.

Bradford

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 4:41 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Bradford:

Entry: alternate
Function: noun
Definition: substitute
Synonyms: backup, double, equivalent, fill-in, proxy, replacement, stand-in, sub, surrogate
Antonyms: original
Concept: equivalence

Entry: substitute
Function: noun
Definition: alternative
Synonyms: agent, alternate, assistant, auxiliary, backup, changeling, delegate, deputy, dernier ressort, double, dummy, equivalent, expediency, expedient, fill-in, ghost, ghost writer, locum, locum tenens, makeshift, pinch-hitter, procurator, proxy, recourse, refuge, relay, relief, replacement, representative, reserve, resort, resource, ringer, stand-by, stand-in, stopgap, sub,succedaneum, successor, supplanter, supply, surrogate, symbol, temp, temporary, temporary expedient, understudy, vicar
Concept: imitation

Dear Bradford,

I just went to sleep after reading Peters post and responding for a moment. I literally felt sick. I sense a twisting, as in an umbilical cord wrapping itself around groups of people. I actually had to put my self to bed. So, I get up wanting to send you a private note as to 'hey Bradford, do you sense this thing that is happening with Peters words and the effect it is having suddenly'? And I can write it now because I have righted it while sleeping and it's almost like spitting up your food. I didn't know what is was until I slowly began to wake and then it was shown.

And then I read this. This, what you have written above, is a downworld/word spiral in a sense. And this is how Peter keeps doing what he is doing. And he is doing it over and over at the critics list as well. Funny, how Detlef mentions the Narmia stories by Saint Lewis the other day and now I read today that Disney is going to finance one of the stories told within the book. Right on time is what I say. This is what Peter really is doing, aware or unaware is of no importance. And for a second I did not have the stomach for it because I did not know it or had not experienced it on a conscious level. Not only is he dragging himself down he is taking others with him in a stupor of sorts, one may not be aware of the effect of this downworld/word spiral but it actually just came full force with his last post naming all the right wing groups that he puts in Dr. Steiners corner. And this was very pointed in the direction down.

Dottie

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From: holderlin66
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:29 pm
Subject: Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

holderlin66 wrote:

[I am of] the opinion that the history of Racism and Richard Wagner's poor showing on Racism, was picked up and became driven theories behind the birth of Nazism. Call it ARIOSOPHY, call it the FINAL SOLUTION. Wagner had a karma with unresolved massive folk and Celtic pictures as well as genetically manipulated and subconsciouly rooted race, angelic and incarnation gifts. Wagner was the very big moving Target for forces to build a case based solidly on Racial misconceptions. Wagner had enormous karma in this realm.

This is a 5th Post Atlantean mandatory Initiation experienc. Motives are real. As real as guns. They are Weapons of Mass Deception.

Bradford elaborates;

Now far be it for us to consider, that in considering Richard Wagner and his immense pulling in of mighty Celtic Imaginations from his former incarnation in Great Britain, we have a direct karmic cause and effect.

Let us consider the shaping of the destiny of Arthur. Well we might view, as from the film "Excalibur" and Morte De Arthur, that Merlin was down in the roots of blood directing heredity in what set of connections in the gene pool he thought needed to be linked. This is somehow a mighty a fearful design that is idealized in the origin of the British Folk. What would happen if the Arthurian myths and Grail myths had never arisen in the British Folk?

Part of the directing and re-directing of souls from one incarnation in a certain race to another and those gathered around the Last Supper, that were streamed towards a whole other field of interconnected destiny in Celt and French as well as the refined Consciousness Soul foundations, culminating in Bacon, Shakespeare, Tolkien...magnificent gifted contributions to the gene pool, all had a great deal to do with how Britain became the Consciousness Soul gateway to English Language and the basis of human freedom.

Now the Michael School was brought down in the German Language, in the I AM zone. A different mission was underway for a different time with a different folk. It was a big card, Michael Intelligence built in integration with the Consciousness Soul foundations of Britain. Would the German language and folk carry the cosmopolitan Michael I AM language into culture?

Well here we run into the echoing Karma of Wagner. Now Wagner did intuit the great Celtic Imaginations that live as the basis of the consciousness soul, albeit from his German perspective. But, along with him came the distinct reality of how Britain was utterly changed from chaotic tribes to a united Arthurian Round Table of all cultures, to be the bearer of the Consciousness Soul impulse for the world. An Image of a great 12 streams and the chaotic Melting Pot of the future America.

We move down the road to who is pissed off and in what sense Karma plays itself out in Race issues. Well, if Wagner had been a conscious initiate, certain statements and forces might have played themselves out differently. 1879 and Wagner at 33 all have to do with the unfolding development of the I AM vision of his masterwork "Parsifal". That and the Ring Saga tags right into Tolkien and the ancient bridge of the Consciousness Soul. But coming in close to Wagner, Nietzsche makes close friends with Wagner. Here is a real weak point. Nietzsche. Now we have two weak points and we also have the hidden intention of landing Steiner in this I AM Language bearing impulse of the Germanics. German the Language of the I AM.

Wagner and Nietzsche and Life itself foiled the higher attempts at bringing the Germanic influence down. Kaspar Hauser, just a little insignificant person in the deck, is thwarted from bringing something of a cultural brotherhood influence into the stream of the unfolding potential of the German mission. There is no doubt that the conquering note of the dawning Michael Event was celebrated under the 1879 Parsifal of Wagner.

But already, the weak points in Wagner/Nietzsche and a massive influx of totally destroying, dividing Germany, are pre-figured in the background of many occult Schools. The Berlin Wall division of Germany was on the blocks long before all this nightmare hit the fan. Just as it was a fact that Christ, this predicted God, would somehow, through betrayal, end up nailed on Golgotha. It was under the surface of things and many souls knew something big was in the works.

That the I AM language of Michael would be left on Steiner's shoulders and the unfulfilled mission of Wagner and Kaspar Hauser and loads of squirmy little swarms of occultists, would serve to interfere by using Wagner's unresolved ancient Celtic Mage manipulation of directing souls from the Last Supper to the Grail community and the foundation of Britain...would be used as a vicious weapon of mass deception.

Racism was to be the hot button karmic issue. A term, when used for what it was used for out of the Nazi unfoldment, created a devastating blow to new I AM potential global Language and culture development. So, I have carved out something of the inner spiritual intent on the side of Michael, but there is another side that played off the weaknesses and unconscious forces in both Nietzsche and Wagner. Naturally they are not soley to blame. But to prevent such a Consciousness Soul unfolding cultural sweep that Shakespeare and the Arthurian and British model of Freedom -

The Magna Carta

...here is a law which is above the King and which even he must not break. This reaffirmation of a supreme law and its expression in a general charter is the great work of Magna Carta; and this alone justifies the respect in which men have held it.

King John of England agreed, in 1215, to the demands of his barons and authorized that handwritten copies of Magna Carta be prepared on parchment, affixed with his seal, and publicly read throughout the realm. Thus he bound not only himself but his "heirs, for ever" to grant "to all freemen of our kingdom" the rights and liberties the great charter described. With Magna Carta, King John placed himself and England's future sovereigns and magistrates within the rule of law.

We can ask ourselves what might have happened of Germany had become the I AM bearer of Cultural and global understanding? Was antisemitism part of the eating away of this impulse? Do men meet Principalities and Powers and do they fail? Do forces attack the very potentials that humanity might achieve?

If I look to America and Columbine, "Bowling for Columbine" and I examine what type of ideals and internet poison the two boys fed upon before they convinced their 16 to 18 year old souls that they would take an action like they did....Well I have to look at enflamed ideologies that are rabid and feed off the weaknesses in conceptual thinking, and feed off the lack of grasp of the mighty greatness that humanity is attempting to achieve. I have to look at people who promote such rabid ideas...and as someone once said, wisely, Because Charles Manson listened to the Beatles, "Helter Skelter", were the Beatles murderers?

Wagner and Nietzsche carried something amazing, but there was a prepared trap waiting to snatch up the whole linkage between racism, the final solution and the mingled greatness in the Jewish blood. Such greatness could flow freely forth and, as Tarjei has rightly said, enter all mankind as an offering and not become a twisted book like "Holy Blood Holy Grail". You can bet that if Kaspar Hauser had not been so completely and occultly interfered with, the flaws in Nietzsche and Wagner would not have been has deadly and humanity might have antidoted the effects of what is considered a "War In Heaven".

Description

Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln, and Richard Leigh, authors of The Messianic Legacy, spent over 10 years on their own kind of quest for the Holy Grail, into the secretive history of early France. What they found, researched with the tenacity and attention to detail that befits any great quest, is a tangled and intricate story of politics and faith that reads like a mystery novel. It is the story of the Knights Templar, and a behind-the-scenes society called the Prieure de Sion, and its involvement in reinstating descendants of the Merovingian bloodline into political power. Why? The authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail assert that their explorations into early history ultimately reveal that Jesus may not have died on the cross, but lived to marry and father children whose bloodline continues today. The authors' point here is not to compromise or to demean Jesus, but to offer another, more complete perspective of Jesus as God's incarnation in man. The power of this secret, which has been carefully guarded for hundreds of years, has sparked much controversy. For all the sensationalism and hoopla surrounding Holy Blood, Holy Grail and the alternate history that it outlines, the authors are careful to keep their perspective and sense of skepticism alive in its pages, explaining carefully and clearly how they came to draw such combustible conclusions. --Jodie Buller

This is just my take on the thing. The Devil is always in the details, is it not?

...................................................................................................................................

From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:04 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi again Frank, you wrote:

It has everything to do with the discussion. It referred (ironically, admitted) to your previous statement, which you conveniently snipped.

In that case, you misunderstood my "previous statement". Here is what I wrote to Christine:

The Nazis also denounced ariosophy. Do you conclude that ariosophy therefore had nothing in common ideologically with Nazism?

As you can see, there is no syllogism here, and the only statement is a simple factual claim. I said nothing about any substantive similarities between anthroposophy and ariosophy; instead I asked Christine a question, one which seemed quite reasonable in the context of our discussion. Questions, you'll recall, are different from statements, and they do not normally figure prominently in syllogisms of any sort. The issue of similarities in content between anthroposophy and ariosophy is a very interesting one, but it makes little sense to approach that issue by looking at Nazi denunciations of either the one or the other.

Peter

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From: at
Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Christine:

If this booklet quotes from Biehl & Staudenmeier, then it came out AFTER your article, not before

Peter Staudenmaier:

The book I co-authored with Janet Biehl was published in 1995. My first article on anthroposophy was published in 2000.

Daniel:

The pamphlet was published in 1999. I find it interesting that these racists need Biehl & Staudenmeier's book to "discover" how closely Rudolf Steiner is aligned to their view.

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 10:25 am
Subject: Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

holderlin66 wrote:

That the I AM language of Michael would be left on Steiner's shoulders and the unfulfilled mission of Wagner and Kaspar Hauser and loads of squirmy little swarms of occultists, would serve to interfere by using Wagner's unresolved ancient Celtic Mage manipulation of directing souls from the Last Supper to the Grail community and the foundation of Britain...would be used as a vicious weapon of mass deception.

Racism was to be the hot button karmic issue. A term, when used for what it was used for out of the Nazi unfoldment, created a devastating blow to new I AM potential global Language and culture development.

Bradford and the tragedy of the I AM;

The Germanic thinking capacity was to be the center for the unfolding of the I AM culture of humanity. Everything was prepared for it to happen. The greatness of Fichte in the I AM of thought, the artistry of Wagner bringing the I AM as a visible rite in his "Parsifal" where Blood, heredity and the entire meeting between the Inner I Am and the Blood of Christ become cognitive were building and building. Wagner simmered over with the Imaginations that had formed the basis of the Consciousness Soul in his Ring Saga.

Steiner knew that the Language and Thinking capacity that should have arisen from the mighty foundations of the Consciouness Soul, as the next plateau of development, was in the capacity of the Germanic thinking skills to arrive at the core revelation of the I AM. Steiner was swept by the Tragedy that this mission was in failure mode. It was going down in flames and Steiner was left to shoulder the upbuilding revelation of all that could have been understood as the context of the rising capacities of humanity, gaining stronger and stronger insights and unveiling the true Mysteries of the I AM and the Christ Event, before entering the gateway and sanctuary to the Spirit Self.

We apparently have very little idea what a significant crisis in higher development called forth such mighty adversaries out of the woodwork. We don't even have an idea of how these adversaries crystalize themselves in our fellow human beings. We don't even hold the depth of what Steiner was Shouldering in relation to the Global events that have transpired, all the way to the A-bomb.

R.S.

http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19200101p01.html

"I should like, by way of introduction to our New Year contemplation, which rightly is also a contemplation of the whole course of time, to recall some passages from essays which I wrote more than thirty years ago and which are shortly to be published. Although connected with personal experiences, these essays have a definite significance if we want to look into the whole spiritual condition of the present day. My purpose in writing them was, as you will notice, to rouse the conscience of the German people, to give expression to that which could be perceived even then, as fundamentally lacking in the spiritual life of the German nation.

I will read to you some passages from one of these essays entitled "The Spiritual Mark of the Present Day". These passages refer to what was taking place more than thirty years ago, to a past which was then the present. I wrote in the very midst of the spiritual life prevailing at that time, amid symptoms which showed themselves most markedly in the life of thought of the German nation. I wrote:

"It is with a shrug of the shoulders that our generation recalls the period when a philosophic current ran through the whole spiritual life of the German people. The mighty impulse of the times, seizing men's minds at the end of last century (i.e., the eighteenth century) and the beginning of this one, and boldly facing the highest imaginable tasks, is now looked upon as a regrettable aberration. If anyone dares to raise an objection when the conversation turns upon Fichte's fantasies, or Hegel's insubstantial play of thoughts and words, he is regarded by his listeners as a mere amateur, who has as slight an idea of the spirit of modern scientific investigation, as he has of the thoroughness and seriousness of philosophic methods. Kant and Schopenhauer at best are tolerated by our contemporaries. It is apparently possible to trace back to Kant the somewhat scanty philosophic crumbs used by modern science as foundational; and Schopenhauer, besides his strictly scientific works, also wrote a few things in a light style, on subjects accessible to people with a limited spiritual horizon. An open mind for that striving towards the loftiest heights of the world of thought, an understanding for that soaring of the spirit which in the realms of science went parallel with our classic period of culture — this is lacking now. The serious side of this phenomenon only appears when we take into consideration that a persistent turning away from that spiritual goal implies for the German people the loss of their own Self, a breaking away from the Spirit of the Nation. For that striving sprang from a deep need in the German nature. It does not enter our mind to wish to deny the manifold mistakes and one-sided fallacies which Fichte, Hegel, Schelling, Oken, and others, committed in their bold inroads into the kingdom of idealism. But the impulse which in all its grandeur inspired them should not be misunderstood. It is the impulse most fitting for a nation of thinkers. The German nation is not characterized by that living sense for immediate reality, or the outward aspect of Nature, which enabled the Greeks to create their wonderful and imperishable works of art. Among the Germans there is instead, an unceasing urge of the spirit toward the cause of things, toward the apparently hidden, deeper origins of the Nature which surrounds us. Just as the Greek spirit found expression in its wonderful world of plastic forms, so the German, more concentrated within himself, less open to Nature but on that account more with his own heart, cherishing intercourse with his own inner world, sought his conquests in the world of pure thought. The way, therefore, in which Fichte and his successors looked upon the world and life was truly German. This is why their teachings were so enthusiastically received; this is why, for a time, they held the whole life of the nation enthralled. This is why we must not break with their spiritual leading. Our solution of the difficulty should be to overcome mistakes, while continuing the natural course of development on the lines laid down at that time. Not what these spirits found or thought to find, is of lasting value, but how they faced the problems."

At the time when this essay was written the German nation had to be shown these truths, which were threatening to disappear from their field of vision. We were living then in another age than the present, an age in which, had we willed it, it might still have been possible for certain circles to unite with the spirit, then at the beginning of its decline, and thus to prepare the way for an all-pervading and lasting development of the human impulse.

Bradford concludes;

In experiencing the tragedy that overwhelmed Germany it is important to focus on the real capacity that was thwarted and scuttled. It is important to see how so called historians still hover around the festering dregs of antisemitism and racism when so much more was at stake. I wander back into the sense of great disappointment that Angels themselves feared for humanity and Steiner attempted to express before catastrophe fully turned to melt down.

Lifting the I AM into the Spirit Self and observing the great missions that the various language beings built for the foundations of thinking, we see the sweep of Greek Culture, British and Consciousness Soul culture and the capacity for grasping the kernel of immortality of the Logos in the I AM structure and then we see the "Titanic" wreck and the collapse of our vision into the dregs that are still presented by our guest, P.S.

You can see that such a book "Holy Blood Holy Grail" is just a sloppy mess of all that remains a failed understanding. That no such misunderstanding arises in Steiner's grasp of the Hebrew People and the Christ Event. It was just refused. It was refused like some stupid stadium soccer match or football game crowd. And they yelled in our faces, "Give us Barabbas".

The generous impulse that was offered to the German culture was to penetrate the greatness and maturity of the I AM core and understand the stream of earthly blood and heredity and the higher cosmic core of the I AM. If you want to understand all that Steiner desired in bringing Spiritual Science through the Germanic Language and thinking forces you have to understand Fichte and the very threshold of the I AM that Germany was balancing on.

http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA003/TaK/GA003_c05.html

We look now at Tolkien and we come again to the threshold of the mystery of the foundations of the Consciousness Soul. We find no tainted racism in Tolkien, except that Racism is looked upon as how the different Groups have different capacities. The Racism of the Elves and their sordid and horrific history that leads to the degeneration of their noble race, called the Orcs.

We have Dwarves, Men, Hobbits... we have the problem that Steiner refused to make into a petty issue. "Lord of the Rings" is a fantasy because humanity and P.S. and his type of bottom feeders refused to hold onto the maturity of all that humanity could see and understand. Races, Languages (France and Joan of Arc) cultures have produced different capacities in the soul. Human beings have incarnated in these historical places and some human beings, like Wagner helped shape the great potential freedom of the Magna Carta. Such a thought is hard to understand, but let me put it another way.

Our dilettante and decadent misunderstandings that frollic around as historical analysis, mine included, betray our limited scope of understanding. The Tragedy and failure to see the sweep, the investment of human freedom and courage to build the depth of wisdom and that this wisdom is there so that we may face real issues reveals our cowardice.

Steiner offered the opportunity to face real issues. Not Hobbits and Orcs and the vast varieties of Aryan or mixed race men that appear in the the story and films spawned by Tolkien. The rich lore of the Consciousness Soul had to gummed down, diluted because of the very miserly and miserable thinking capacities of people, all over the board, but people just like Peter and just like me and you. We might have been able to approach the mysteries of the I AM. Perhaps the thinking capacity of the Germans and the infested nightmare that has gripped the world all the way to Columbine and these internet arguments could have been approached so very differently. Holy Blood and Holy Grail would never have made it to the publishing house.

But the Tragedy and the complexity is something that humanity refuses to face and history or potential roads through history were catastrophically compromised. Refuses, yes, Peter is not facing it, he is picking out moral garbage to feed to pigs and further contribute to new Columbine disasters. Thinking, hell, these are thoughts formed in shrunken heads. What is hard is facing the complexity of the worlds foundations with an open mind.

Steiner and Alexander the Great certainly brought about a mixing of the races, and gladly. To experience, that say, Aristotle and Alexander had a Karma that mixed races and that Merlin and the British and Celtic foundations of the Consciousness Soul, prided themselves on the redirecting and shaping of hereditary forces, bring such a collection of human beings into the complexity of history and Karma and head on with the Race Card and the undercurrent nightmare of all that is what if. What if instead of Mingling and have the various cultures flow together in mutual richness, we catastrophically cart them off to Industrial, production line, annhilation and begin cleansing the earth of various breeds of human.

How all this came about is so much deeper than this pipsqueak can even handle that it behooves Peter to Stand Down or Sit up like a real human being.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 9:19 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi Dottie, you wrote:

His students work hard as you can see by this list to understand the world and its origins. These are people trying to make a difference in the world and to be aware of the difference they make.

I quite agree. What does that have to do with Steiner's racial and ethnic doctrines? Do you mean that people who try to understand the world and try to make a difference in the world cannot hold racist or antisemitic beliefs?

At what point in time did you find the need or desire to go purely without any kind of spiritual reality in as far as something more than us?

That isn't my perspective. I believe in spiritual realities that are more than us.

And what would happen if there indeed was a greater reality than the one we live in? Would you lose control of who you are? Would that mean your life wasn't your own?

I don't think that our lives are our own in any case. Our lives are lived with other people, with other creatures, within social and ecological contexts that are much larger than any individual.

What is it that you are unwilling to let go of?

Well-founded conclusions about history, in the absence of persuasive counter-arguments.

You can try and look at the outer parts of Dr. Steiners work and try to make some sense of it but it does not work that way.

It doesn't? How do you make sense of Steiner's work?

You comment that others bring in your political orientation to get away from the Steiner racist things and so forth

That was not my comment. I don't know why several of you are more interested in my political orientation than in the ostensible theme of this list. I very much enjoy discussing my political orientation, but I came here to talk about "the Steiner racist things" and related matters.

[From "Morality and Racism:]

Have you reread anything the Anthroposophists have offered up for you to look further for a better understanding?

Yes, I do this sort of re-reading rather frequently.

Peter

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 10:53 am
Subject: Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

Hi Dottie, you wrote:

His students work hard as you can see by this list to understand the world and its origins. These are people trying to make a difference in the world and to be aware of the difference they make.

I quite agree. What does that have to do with Steiner's racial and ethnic doctrines? Do you mean that people who try to understand the world and try to make a difference in the world cannot hold racist or antisemitic beliefs?

Peter, do you think that the Steiner students you encountered on this list and the wc list believe in an Aryan white race that will take over the world or at least is trying to and using Dr. Steiners work to bring it about? If so of course you are speaking once again on ARIOSOPHY and not Anthroposophy. I realize they sound alike but of course we know that means nothing, right Peter? And do you believe they believe we are talking about a physical time regarding these comments?

Do you believe the Anthrosoposophists are racist Peter? And if so against who specifically? I am not talking about the five or six you found out of thousands and thousands of Anthroposophists I am talking as a whole? Do you find them to be racists?

Looking at Christians, who also hold Ku Klux Klan ideologies they percieve came from the Bible, can you hold the other Christians who do not percieve Christ in that manner to the same flag pole as those who also sit with the racial ideology of the KKK? Are all Christians following a racist ideology when following the New Testament? Are the Jews racist in your mind for the concept that they are Gods chosen people?

Peter:

That isn't my perspective. I believe in spiritual realities that are more than us.

Dottie

So, Peter, which spiritual realities are you speaking of here? I have to wonder if you are not speaking of the Intellect as a spiritual reality? How does that work in your world view? If you stand against God wouldn't that make the opposite, Satan, say, out of the picture as well? Or is it that Satan is fighting the good fight because he stand up against all the seperatism and is fair to all? It actually feels like a mindxxxx to me. Your ego is in control and you can not see what is really happening because 'it' is in control. It'd be interesting to know what the ego is protecting for you. It's actually not protecting anything now but it may have in the past way back when. Great book on that called Embracing Our Selves. Talks about how the ego protects that which it percieves is wounded to make sure this does not happen again. It's actually a noble gesture but unfortunately one becomes a slave to the 'ego' and it is so frieken hard to walk or talk it down into balance with the opposite that is trying to come through.

Dottie

And what would happen if there indeed was a greater reality than the one we live in? Would you lose control of who you are? Would that mean your life wasn't your own?

Peter

I don't think that our lives are our own in any case. Our lives are lived with other people, with other creatures, within social and ecological contexts that are much larger than any individual.

Dottie

Why not? And its very interesting to have this take because it really does play into the idea that the ego has taken over and it really is not your own then. And for me this is a core lesson of the work by Dr. Steiner or at least as how I percieve them. I become 'free' when I am not a slave to my feelings and my thoughts, when I actually am aware of why I am thinking what I am thinking and if where it came from. Is it my thought or is it something conditioned from something else. Yours feels conditioned. Well most of ours are anyway and I guess that is back to the idea that our lives aren't our own anyway. But they can be. And damn it if I am not going to make it so in this lifetime. What about you?

Dottie

What is it that you are unwilling to let go of?

Peter:

Well-founded conclusions about history, in the absence of persuasive counter-arguments.

Dottie

You know what Peter you are right to a certain extent. But you MUST take into consideration of that which you are unaware of. And for you it is this spiritual reality that you really do not look at all that much although I do sense it is more than before. And boy is that a good thing. And not because it will fit into something nice and neat I believe in rather because you will be FREE. Absolutely free. And I am telling you this book POF is the way to find it. There may be other ways but I do not know what they are. I haven't read them so once again I call on my listmates to make it available if anyone has another name that speaks to the same idea without all the heaviness of a Steiner connection for Peter.

And in regards to persuasive counter arguments that truth is Peter only you can find it. Nobody can make you believe a thing. But if you do not rise to 'wonder' about a thing you will not find it. It's just impossible. The Steiner students have shown you their interpretations of Steiners work. For the most part it is not out of loyalty it is out of their inner perception of his work. You understand the outer perception of his work and if you can not look inside to see what he is really talking about even if you disagree you will not find it. If you already know a thing you leave yourself no room to grow. You keep moving sideways.

And it really is not about you being wrong. Its about wanting the truth and not Peters truth but the objective truth of a thing. You are here for some reason and I tell you it is not to prove Steiner was an antisemite and a whatever semite names you got going on rather it is for you to see yourself outside yourself and how others are percieving you. It doesn't make them right and wrong but you can get a good idea about the impact of how you go about a thing and where people sense a lack of honesty or sincerity. And that is really all we own of ourselves Peter, our integrity, our being, it is ours and nobody elses. It doesn't make all the things said or any of the things said as true but what it does do is give you an opportunity to see yourself in a way. And you are asking for this for some reason and it does not have to do with this Steiner is an antisemite thing. It is much deeper than that.

Dottie

You can try and look at the outer parts of Dr. Steiners work and try to make some sense of it but it does not work that way.

Peter:

It doesn't? How do you make sense of Steiner's work?

Dottie

Well I had my own questions just like you although they were of a different nature. I found in Dr. Steiner the things he said that lined up with my experiences that showed themselves to be self- evident to me. It wasn't an outer experience of reading his words and saying 'oh that is neat'. Nor was it trying to make the other things I had found on my own before finding him to be right. I was searching for an inner truth and I didn't want Dottie's version of it I wanted the truth to live within me. I wanted to understand that which is ongoing even after one dies or even if there was such a thing that lives on after we die. Just because one has 'spiritual experiences' does not mean there is an ongoing spiritual reality or at least I so had felt. (although I tell you I have found we never die even if you can not believe it)

I realize you find the outer work which is exactly what the ARIOSOPHISTS and the Hitler regime and anyone else who wants to make this world the one and only world. Now, you can do that but it isn't the truth and if you want to know it for yourself you will have to open your heart and mind to the possibility. That is all you have to do, for your heart will lead the rest of the way. And it is not a mushy heart Peter. You have a very strong heart that can be seen but what will you use it towards is the question? Will you leave yourself a legacy of truths that will speak forever here and in the afterworld, even if you do not believe, or will you keep moving on this path that leads to nowhere for it isn't the truth regarding Dr. Steiner?

Peter:

That was not my comment. I don't know why several of you are more interested in my political orientation than in the ostensible theme of this list.

Dottie

But did you notice how noone judged you for it in the manner that many people would have? It's just a note to see where your sympathies lie for me. It's like reading that book I told you about way back when about Sojourner Truth. Or maybe a racist person writing about Abraham Lincoln and so forth who may have a certain world view that does not allow him to see things objectively even if he thinks he is. You are looking at this through a black and white prism it seems to me and your politics as they lie to the somewhat extreme left have a bearance on how you view things. It doesn't have to be specifically about Dr. Steiner it could be about any subject. Have you not noticed that the conservative right wing does the same thing. Its all this hyperbole. It's not truth, it's men caught in what they believe to be true against all logic or thinking. And I think it is because somewhere along the line they learned they could not be wrong. They could not be made a fool of and so we have this extreme thing that happens when a debate takes place: no free thinking just slavery to ones own preconcieved conceptions. One can not change their minds unless it is to better their point. And that is being a slave to ones ego, not even another God or whathave you, to ones OWN EGO.

Peter:

I very much enjoy discussing my political orientation, but I came here to talk about "the Steiner racist things" and related matters.

Dottie

But you don't see how they affect one another. Why not? You at times hold that the Steiner students don't see your view as they are students of Steiner. And here you are a student to the extreme left and you do not see what that has to do with your take on Dr. Steiners work not to mention you do hold an atheistic outlook. You can keep window dressing it but anyone can see past it if they so care to look.

Dottie:

Have you reread anything the Anthroposophists have offered up for you to look further for a better understanding?

Peter:

Yes, I do this sort of re-reading rather frequently.

Dottie

Do you look to see where you can shore up your 'proof', or do you look to see what it is they are saying to see if it makes any sense to your own take on his words? Don't be a slave Peter to your preconcieved notions Peter if you can. I mean if you want to continue this charade you can but it will do nothing to add onto your person.

My Best,
Dottie

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From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi Dottie, thanks for your post. You wrote:

Peter, do you think that the Steiner students you encountered on this list and the wc list believe in an Aryan white race that will take over the world or at least is trying to and using Dr. Steiners work to bring it about?

No.

Do you believe the Anthrosoposophists are racist Peter? And if so against who specifically? I am not talking about the five or six you found out of thousands and thousands of Anthroposophists I am talking as a whole? Do you find them to be racists?

No, I do not think that all anthroposophists are racists. I don't think that very many of them are racists. A lot of anthroposophists, particularly English-speaking ones, appear to be largely unaware of the less pleasant sides of Steiner's racial doctrines.

So, Peter, which spiritual realities are you speaking of here? I have to wonder if you are not speaking of the Intellect as a spiritual reality? How does that work in your world view?

No, I didn't mean intellect. I think you probably only see my intellect at work here because that's what I think is appropriate for discussion forums like this one. Try to keep in mind that you and I otherwise know very little about one another. The spiritual realities that I experience are not intellectual, they are largely sensual, involving trees and rivers and skies and bodies and so forth.

If you stand against God

I don't stand against god, I simply don't believe in her/him/it.

The Steiner students have shown you their interpretations of Steiners work. For the most part it is not out of loyalty it is out of their inner perception of his work.

Yes, I see that. Some of you seem to want me to just take those inner perceptions at face value and not challenge them by comparing them to what Steiner wrote and said. I don't see the sense in that sort of approach to public dialogue.

Well I had my own questions just like you although they were of a different nature. I found in Dr. Steiner the things he said that lined up with my experiences that showed themselves to be self- evident to me.

Cool. That's not how I look at Steiner's work, though. I look at it as a historical phenomenon.

But you don't see how they affect one another. Why not?

Because I disagree with you that they affect one another in this way. I think that arguments should be judged on their merits, not according to any other beliefs held by the person who happens to put the argument forward. I really do enjoy talking about politics, it just isn't why I came here. I came here to talk about Steiner. I encourage you and everyone else to keep my politics in mind whenever you read anything I write about Steiner, but I think it simply makes much more sense to discuss the actual subject matter rather than focusing on each other's political perspectives. There are lots of other forums where we can argue about politics.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Peter

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 8:57 am
Subject: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Speakers meaning

holderlin66 wrote;

Now the Michael School was brought down in the German Language, in the I AM zone. A different mission was underway for a different time with a different folk. It was a big card, Michael Intelligence built in integration with the Consciousness Soul foundations of Britain. Would the German language and folk carry the cosmopolitan Michael I AM language into culture?

Well here we run into the echoing Karma of Wagner. Now Wagner did intuit the great Celtic Imaginations that live as the basis of the consciousness soul, albeit from his German perspective. But, along with him came the distinct reality of how Britain was utterly changed from chaotic tribes to a united Arthurian Round Table of all cultures, to be the bearer of the Consciousness Soul impulse for the world. An Image of a great 12 streams and the chaotic Melting Pot of the future America.

We can ask ourselves what might have happened of Germany had become the I AM bearer of Cultural and global understanding? Was antisemitism part of the eating away of this impulse? Do men meet Principalities and Powers and do they fail? Do forces attack the very potentials that humanity might achieve?

Bradford comments;

Owen Barfield certainly gives a Consciousness Soul vision and gets right down to the nitty gritty of a "Speakers Meaning". The expresion and use of such hot button words like Antisemitism and Racism, are pawned off as expressions which the mighty 'discerning' general public can digest and disect and understand clearly the difference between rumor and reality. Bull----!

Barfield:

"Words can expand in meaning -- so that they become more encompassing -- or they can contract in meaning. Historically, the latter process has dominated, so that, for example, a single word combining the meanings, "spirit," "wind," and "breath" in a unified manner subsequently splits into three separate words, each with a more restricted meaning. Narrower meanings conduce to accuracy of communication, and result from rational analysis. Broader meanings support fullness of expression, and result from imaginative synthesis. Communication deals with the how, and expression with the what. "Perfect communication would occur if all words had and retained identical meanings every time they were uttered and heard. But it would occur at the expense of expression."

"Language is a living and creative power, from which man's subjectivity was slowly extracted. The function of language is to create that esthetic "distance" between man and the world "which is the very thing that constitutes his humanity. It is what frees him from the world."

He is no longer a peninsula pushed out by natural forces. He is a separated island existing in a symbolic universe. Physical reality recedes in proportion as his symbolic activity advances. He objectivizes more and more completely. But the symbols were the product of his own inner activity in the first place and they never really lose that character, however completely his very success in objectifying them may make him forget the fact. Forever afterwards, in dealing with things he is, as Cassirer puts it, "in a sense conversing with himself." (Worlds Apart)

Languages today possess only the faintest traces of the one-time unity of sound and meaning. Those willing to look "may find, in the consonantal element in language, vestiges of those forces which brought into being the external structure of nature, including the body of man; and, in the original vowel-sounds, the expression of that inner life of feeling and memory which constitutes his soul." All this is consistent with the testimony of the ancients that the primordial Word was responsible for creation.

Still today, the invisible word is spoken with a physical gesture, even if that gesture has for the most part contracted into the small organs of speech. One can at least imagine how the gestures of speech were once made with the whole body. This was before man had become "detached from the rest of nature after the solid manner of today, when the body itself was spoken even while it was speaking." (Saving the Appearances) "

Bradford comments;

Now I intended to examine once again the Consciousness Soul. But I must pause here. When Barfield says, "Still today, the invisible word is spoken with a physical gesture, even if that gesture has for the most part contracted into the small organs of speech. One can at least imagine how the gestures of speech were once made with the whole body. " I get shivers.

Aside from Albert Steffen and the very few Speech Graduates in the U.S. only Eurythmists understand the full impact of this statement. To others, most reading these words, you have no idea how the biological central core of the throat and the hidden Chakra in the speech organ, first magnifies itself outwardly to the skeletal model of the human form.

That, dear friends, since you have very little clue of what the Egyptian Mysteries were about, that the Bull in the Heavens at the Spring Equinox for Egypt, was a potent force of the Word centered in the throat, well you must remain clueless unless you have really examined the depth of history and observed carefully what the Golden Fleece meant and what Egypt and the Spring forces of the Bull meant in the Speech and Word center.

Given that insight, carried by so damn few, owed to Dr. Steiner, we expand out from the skeletal form and the shape of man as an absolute mirror of the Zodiac... Head Aires/the feet Pisces/rib cage Cancer/currently we are in Leo/ the Heart. The Bull is the throat and the twins are the arms..blah, blah, blah, blah.. to those who imagine they understand Steiner, HA!

So as Barfield has indicated- Gesture is just the human form, but zooming out further you get the entire seasons and constellations which are the model, the actual Imagination of the little person we carry in our limbs. This massive physics reduced impression is reduced and enhanced even further in the Speech capacity. For here we come upon the break down of each virtue and each force that exists in consonant and vowel structure. In the Hawaiian language a vowel aspect predominates.. in the Finnish language the consonants predominate..climate and geography have great influence.

But nobody, nobody, not Chomsky as a linguist, not Wittgenstein, not Tolkien as a language researcher, not Nietsche as a linguist, only, only Dr. Steiner has delved into the potent physics and specific forces in consonants and vowels to reveal in a Goethean manner the fact that Consonants are the structural forces of the Zodiac, and the Vowels the structural forces of the Planets. The soul of words are in the vowels and the form of the word, in the consonants. Form and Content, gets kind of Schillerish doesn't it?

To the dull and unintuitive this seems all meaningless and away from the dreary point. But to intelligence and truth, it is enormous. It takes in the tiny little curled embryo form of the circle of the Zodiac embedded in the womb and outlined by Poppelbaum to the erect form of the human being and the Speaking and Thinking human being. It reveals the four seasons and the four ventricles of the heart. It asks why some amphibians have three etc heart chambers.. Biology and the numerical reality of the world as well as thought and the Free Spirit flowing from heart to heart are just some of the wide ranging and affirming details of Spiritual Science.

Nevermind...lets just face it. Some souls are so starved and shrivvelled, so depleted and unable to see reality when it stares them in the face, that any fiery, Leo like, raying in of potent insights makes them turn their eyes away, for fear, like the Wicked Witch of the West... I'm Melting..I'm melting.. etheric forces of watery nature would melt their dried and decomposed ASH, that has held them together and been fed to them as truth in their universities.

Ashes, Ashes they all fall down.

This is such a startling Imagination of just the Ash part of this essay and the mystery of Water, that we can only step back and gasp.

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 9:25 am
Subject: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

holderlin66 wrote;

If I look to America and Columbine, "Bowling for Columbine" and I examine what type of ideals and internet poison the two boys fed upon before they convinced their 16 to 18 year old souls that they would take an action like they did....Well I have to look at enflamed ideologies that are rabid and feed off the weaknesses in conceptual thinking, and feed off the lack of grasp of the mighty greatness that humanity is attempting to achieve. I have to look at people who promote such rabid ideas...and as someone once said, wisely, Because Charles Manson listened to the Beatles, "Helter Skelter", were the Beatles murderers?

Bradford expands this item;

So we build an edifice based on lies, deceptions and antisemtism. We brand the Greatest Humanity can be offered with labels that are riot fuel and torches to the unformed soul conditions in the 16-18 year old undeveloped minds. We have brittle teachers who twist sincere arguments and retreat into the "we have no proof that anything exists" (damn it see "Donnie Darko"). We cannot stop what is rabidly thrust into the market place of young minds. It is too late. The Beast that Germany might have not let out of the box, was let out. It is historical and we are cohesively holding the I AM together because it was given to each of us.

We are in the 5th epoch. We are mandatorily engaged in a real fight for the future of the human soul. To others this is silly intellectual flipping of conceptual burgers that obviously don't have to stick to the soul. This attitude reveals the absolute sickness, the illness that people assume everyone has. I acknowledge the sickness but searching for a cure is what the 5th Epoch is all about, see thee to it!

It is unrealistic and against the grain to destroy or interfere with someone's Freedom of speech. It makes it all so interesting doesn't it? But we are all so conniving and manipulative and cruel. Selfishly we choose the most infested racial lies to haunt and hound Steiner, when it is one of the only lifeboats around. We know why you want to punch holes in the lifeboat. It is rage, jealousy and your own inner demon that you cannot face because of your own contracted, blame filled upbringing. Well that is the choice that many malicious and unconscious people make. Pity Judas that he killed his father and slept with his mother, pity that the soul intent lives in each and every one of us when we discover we are Dylan and Homeless. But without our usual cowardice just take a look at the results.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/suspicious3.html

So What is the discussion in the midst of the Ash of the I AM. People think of it! The Ashes of the I AM..not only what was left of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...the Ash is everywhere where dried out thinking replaces the richness of the human heart and soul. Still in the atmosphere we breath parts per billion of the Ashes of the I Am, not only from the ovens of Germany but from the Ash of Hiroshima. Are we this stupid? (sorry Leo has eaten my passion side) People willfully and subjectively fail to understand and see the unripened forces of the 16-18 year old heart. Where one willingly contributes to misinterpretation and historical revisionism one is willing to drop sizzling fuel on dynamite and then have the audacity to justify it.

http://wwwiz.com/issue31/html/article3.html

"In the wake of the Columbine High School shootings, it was revealed that Eric Harris had maintained his own Web site, on which he had posted a graphic barrage of hate-filled epithets and malicious declarations. (Harris' Web site provider, AOL, has since taken the site off-line, but a mirror copy is still available for viewing.) More controversially, Harris' site also featured a lengthy and detailed tutorial on how best to create such devices as pipe bombs and napalm. It was this aspect of the site that created the "Internet as evildoer" battle cry, igniting a series of admonitions that, had the Internet not existed, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold and virtually any other troubled individual would likely have failed in their brutal intentions, or would never have conceived of them at all. Time Magazine columnist Daniel Okrent opined in his May 10, 1999 cover story: "…the wonder and the horror of the Web is not that it takes you out into the world; on the contrary, it brings the world-in all its glorious, anarchic, beautiful, hateful variety-into your home."

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 12:21 pm
Subject: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/healing Columbine

http://www.annebaring.com/anbar12_lect06_sleepingbty.htm

http://pages.zdnet.com/pixordia/Pixsjournal.html

Here are a small sampling of the sites of the arising and spirited souls working in the opposite direction of Columbine.

Dottie please note PIXSJOURNAL. We should be awed.

Here are refeshed souls, thankful they came across lifeboats instead of freezing to death in the frigid Atlantic of the Intellect. Somehow educators managed to share with them the heart forces that lives as life in the soul and spirit.

But with each great goodness we see how a marked army of corrupt thinkers still wage war on their own intellectual soul ASH. The stunning sadness of how we must be adrift in these shark infested waters, marooned, cast away, is the stamp of the 5th Post Atlantean epoch. We were, as Steiner's true mission reveals, on the verge of understanding the depth of the I AM that takes us back all the way to Saturn evolution. But look ye to the shattered wrecks of how the cosmos as been butchered and handed to young minds.

"Do this for the least of these", but scorn the brittle, Ash filiments that created the fortress of Sauron. The horrible conceptual cohesion that was fashioned in the Ring - (Wagners and Tolkien's reminder of the Ring as well as the latest reminder of even more deadly evil in "The Ring" where true Asuras now step into the realm of the child.) The heat of the Titans and the Volcanic Ash of the first eyesore on the pristine landscape of creation, where ancient Titans were imprisoned in the Earth's core, connects to the very core of the Earth and the Christ Event.

We keep dragging ourselves back further and further to placing the blame and infecting the very innocence of childhood...where the Christ Being lives in the first years of childhood.. there, if the monsters continue to aim their educational feeding frenzy, you will have such an Anti-Child, that was depicted first in "The Bad Seed" and then again, deeper and more deadly in "The Ring". This is the JonBenet Ramsey syndrome and connects itself to the egotism still flaring in parents.

Will those who fear the Christ go so far as to fully poison the very roots of human spirutality by their rabid, corrupt and vicious insights? Well friends, that is what we are here to prevent. That is what every, imperfect Waldorf School has come to the Aid of. The sanctity of childhood. That is what Hogwarts and Waldorfffs equate to. That is why you have a second attempt at Consciousness Soul Picturing that links Wagner and Tolkien together. Not that anyone understands what this means, except Danny and Harvey at least, and certainly Christine, Starbirgarden and Joksu of Finland.

Steiner will not fail because of the very inspired sites listed above and the very battles fought here and in the stubborn hearts of denial and fear that constantly twist and shrivel reality to suit the pain they feel at being Homeless, at being ourselves Judas, and betrayed by the pivotal action of the cultural capacities latent in the German people. The German People refused to take up even what they were most gifted at, Penetrating the I AM with thought. Thereby we have been tossed into this nightmare spin that has resurfaced in George Bush and American Imperialism - a renewed living Orwellian Nightmare.

Instead, the "Will to Power" so enflamed, ignited and infected the polarity of the seat of the I Am that we were thrust down into the Aztec nightmare of the Earth's inner Core. Here in this core of molten Iron and Gold the raw pivot of the I Am and the Christ Being is balanced on a knife point of the Ego. This is what facing the 5th Post Atlantean epoch is about. There is no backing away from this monster it is out of the bag.

Oh that it weren't so. Oh that we could merely play endless mind games and wish it all away. Frodo and the Ash filiment foundations of Sauron's kingdom collapsed, because the interior etheric forces of the Risen Christ and the failed mixture of Avarice and Greed with Gold and the Ring, were sent back..and sent back via the Intellectual Soul. For it is here in this the Intellectual Soul where this brutal battle continues to rage.

But in the end it was a horrible wrestling match with the fallen 'double' Gollum. None of us have conquered this double but we have a singular and focused awareness when people are oblivious to their own motives. In this, lies all the danger of the world.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 4:06 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

At 18:19 03.03.2004, PS wrote:

I believe in spiritual realities that are more than us.

Would you care to elaborate?

I don't think that our lives are our own in any case. Our lives are lived with other people, with other creatures, within social and ecological contexts that are much larger than any individual.

If our lives are not our own, are they owned by someone else? Are our lives owned by other creatures, by some socio-ecological state-like organism or something? Who own(s) our lives if we don't?

How do you make sense of Steiner's work?

Perhaps the ability to make sense of Steiner's work is a gift, and perhaps some so-called "critics" are as envious of these gifts as are the anti-Semites of Jewish genius and merit.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 4:15 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

At 06:30 04.03.2004, PS wrote:

A lot of anthroposophists, particularly English-speaking ones, appear to be largely unaware of the less pleasant sides of Steiner's racial doctrines.

What you mean is "the less pleasant sides of mischievous Steiner-reading and malicious theorizing about it." It would be awkward for anthroposophists to stop everything they're doing for the sole purpose of acknowledging distorted ideas about their worldview.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Peter S wrote (to Dottie):

The spiritual realities that I experience are not intellectual, they are largely sensual, involving trees and rivers and skies and bodies and so forth.

' As Clemens of Alexandria said in speaking of the Greater Mysteries: "Here ends all teachings, one sees Nature and things." ' - "Trail of the Serpent" by Inquire Within [Christina Stoddard], Chapter IX: "Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy."

(The entire chapter, which is reminiscent of WC's Sharon's descriptions of Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy, will be posted in its entirety in the near future.)

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Peter:

No, I do not think that all anthroposophists are racists. I don't think that very many of them are racists. A lot of anthroposophists, particularly English-speaking ones, appear to be largely unaware of the less pleasant sides of Steiner's racial doctrines.

Hi Peter,

What works can you point to or rather what Steiner doctrines are you speaking of? It seems to me that the ones I read that you have an issue with are the ones that speak to a cultural evolution. It seems you are calling Dr. Steiner a racist due to the fact that he speaks on the various cultures and where he sees them evolving and so forth.

I have to say the more I understand what polemical writing is the more I am convinced that this is indeed what method your articles adhere to. They can not be a rounded understanding of what Dr. Steiner brought because you lock in on isolated phrases and insist they mean what you say they mean. You throw out the rest as it is something irrelevant. Dr. Steiners students aren't trying to justify what you call racist by saying 'hey well look over here, he's not a racist here', rather they are saying you are almost interpreting things out of context or at least that is how I see it.

But why would one waste their time on a polimical way of writing about a thing when it adds nothing to the truth and everything to the writers ego that says 'I know against all logic that can be shown'.

Peter:

The spiritual realities that I experience are not intellectual, they are largely sensual, involving trees and rivers and skies and bodies and so forth.

Dottie

What exactly does this mean Peter?

Peter:

I don't stand against god, I simply don't believe in her/him/it.

Dottie

Do you believe one can be a slave to their own ego?

Peter:

Yes, I see that. Some of you seem to want me to just take those inner perceptions at face value and not challenge them by comparing them to what Steiner wrote and said. I don't see the sense in that sort of approach to public dialogue.

Dottie

I haven't seen anyone here who asked you to do such a thing. Not one person. This is not a prosthelyzing group. (mangled that word sorry:( And the Steiner students are aware that nobody can tell another to take a perception at face value, nor do they, from what I can see, take other's inner perceptions at face value. It goes against all that Dr. Steiner taught.

They are asking you to look deeper into the topical level you write from.

Peter:

Cool. That's not how I look at Steiner's work, though. I look at it as a historical phenomenon.

Dottie

That doesn't appear to be the truth of what you write Peter. It's polemic not history as far as I can tell. And if you wrote on any other subject I studied in the same manner I would probably feel the same way. You do not feel objective in the least. You look objective but you do not feel so when it gets right down to it.

Peter:

Because I disagree with you that they affect one another in this way. I think that arguments should be judged on their merits, not according to any other beliefs held by the person who happens to put the argument forward.

Dottie

Arguments should be judged on their merits but it seems you only bring half a story and are unwilling to ever course correct yourself when shown the opposite to be true. You are stuck on a one way highway with no exit going nowhere when you argue in this manner.

Peter:

I really do enjoy talking about politics, it just isn't why I came here. I came here to talk about Steiner. I encourage you and everyone else to keep my politics in mind whenever you read anything I write about Steiner, but I think it simply makes much more sense to discuss the actual subject matter rather than focusing on each other's political perspectives. There are lots of other forums where we can argue about politics.

Dottie

It makes absolutely no sense to me that an educated and well spoken man of your caliber does not understand how your personal politics play into this whole mess you got going on here. I mean really Peter. You know better than this and I can not believe you would allow others the same leeway you give yourself.

I really think you should think twice about this book you are writing. Leave a legacy not a lie.

Sincerely,
Dottie

p.s. I get you disagree but if you want to find out whether you are speaking on a truth you should think again and this time read all the other quotes that line up with the same phrases you have in mind.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 8:51 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: ...Number of Self Proclaimed racists...

Hi Dottie, thanks for your post. You wrote:

What works can you point to or rather what Steiner doctrines are you speaking of? It seems to me that the ones I read that you have an issue with are the ones that speak to a cultural evolution. It seems you are calling Dr. Steiner a racist due to the fact that he speaks on the various cultures and where he sees them evolving and so forth.

When Steiner associates this kind of evolution with particular racial and ethnic groups, then yes, in my view, his doctrines turn racist at that point. There is no such thing as higher racial forms. There is no such thing as decadent peoples. Soul development and racial development have absolutely nothing to do with one another. To hold otherwise is to endorse a patently racist belief, in my estimation.

That doesn't appear to be the truth of what you write Peter. It's polemic not history as far as I can tell.

Perhaps you share Daniel's perception that history and polemic are incompatible. I think this perception is quaint, but mistaken. Historical debates are frequently polemical.

It makes absolutely no sense to me that an educated and well spoken man of your caliber does not understand how your personal politics play into this whole mess you got going on here. I mean really Peter. You know better than this and I can not believe you would allow others the same leeway you give yourself.

Yes, I can see that this makes no sense to you. Unfortunately I don't know how else to explain it. Attending to the ostensible worldview of your interlocutor rather than to the substance of the argument they put forward is a logical fallacy. By the way, I do allow others exactly this sort of leeway. You can see that several listmates and I disagree about politics and economics, for example. They think a lot of my political and economic views are nutty, and I think a lot of their political and economic views are nutty. To my mind, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Rudolf Steiner's statements on Jews or on race, thus I do not bring their view on politics and economics into our exchanges about anthroposophy's racial and ethnic doctrines. There are lots of other forums where we can argue about anarchism and so forth. I think it makes more sense to use this forum to argue about Steiner.

Peter

On PS on decadence, and non-comment on his repeated untruthful demagoguery the last years

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:05 am
Subject: Re: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

holderlin66

People willfully and subjectively fail to understand and see the unripened forces of the 16-18 year old heart. Where one willingly contributes to misinterpretation and historical revisionism one is willing to drop sizzling fuel on dynamite and then have the audacity to justify it.

Bradford comments;

The Patriot Act, Freedom of Speech and non-violence as well as racism have different facets. Universities always allow liberal mental aberrations to be instilled into young minds, who feel the wonderful cunning of Ahrimanic Intelligence in overblown exaulted pride. Now it Spiritual Science is also looked up as liberal overblown philosophy. This mingling and mixing of Logos discernment against Ahrimanic discernment is key to Soul Damage and further world catastrophe.

The Zundel Deportation as overblown lie or pasting Steiner with racism, appearing to defend us against racial views, allows Peter to slide in under the Ahrimanic wires. Materialistic relativism is Okay people and it is safe to think like Peter because, partial, hidden motiviated lies are not as bad as Zundel.

Zundel:

"Canadian Security Intelligence Service accuses Mr. Zündel of being a dangerous preacher of anti-Semitic, white-supremacist hatred. Even if he doesn't advocate violence, it reads, he is dangerous because he's seen as a guru by extremists who do embrace violence.

CSIC describes the white-supremacist movement as a network of groups with a common racist ideology. "Many followers are attracted by Zündel's messaging, his dedication to the cause and his personal charisma," according to the summary. "By his comportment as a leader and ideologue, the service believes Zündel intends serious violence to be a consequence of his influence."

To Mr. Zündel, this is guilt by association. How others interpret and apply his writing is not his business, he says: "I am not the policeman for the right." He admits to speaking at meetings attended by "headline-seekers," but he insists that he resents how their crude tactics marginalize his views.

"The one hallmark that has always earned me the title of being a coward in our circles is that I disdained the use of violence," he says. "I never joined any of these right-wing groups because they were politically impotent."

The inordinate secrecy of the security certificate procedure has left Mr. Lindsay ill-equipped to attack the CSIS allegations. He says he can only guess what facts, hearsay or falsehoods may pepper the classified government documents.

"There could be someone lying through their teeth in evidence that could be attacked and ripped to pieces. I believe in an adversarial system, where both sides can challenge the other side's evidence in an open forum. I don't care whether it is Ernst Zündel or anyone else; there should be one system of justice that works for everybody, including the marginalized and those no one else cares about."

Of course, the government isn't alone in considering the man a threat. "Ernst Zündel epitomizes and sanctions the worst form of Holocaust denial," contends Bernie Farber, a spokesman for the Canadian Jewish Congress."

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=1350003&t=-1

...................................................................................................................................

From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 3:04 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

Okay, Bradford, I'l bite. What's your point? And why is Zundel facing 5 years in prison in Germany? They don't mention that.

Frank

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 7:26 pm
Subject: Re: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

Frank Thomas Smith wrote:

Okay, Bradford, I'l bite. What's your point? And why is Zundel facing 5 years in prison in Germany? They don't mention that.

Frank

Zundel wrote:

"The Hitler We Loved and Why," a book reeking of antisemitism and of hatred towards people of color"

Well you old wily thong buster...Did I say thank-you for rightly clearing up, through your daughter, what was an obvious attempt to distort Steiner?

Thanks! I have a daughter and I know my daughter like your daughter will deeply take in the melodious "some shit on the internet says thanks" and the well weighed response, uh! (shrug) whatever!.

Well this Zundel, and why do I have to blubber to you, an internet junkie, who Zundel is? Why can't you put together the links that were offered? Shall I get you some tea while I'm up, because Diana says that's about all that's up these days. Soups On!

Zundel I guess we could say is an anti-semite; You know Frank, like us only different.

"Ernst Zundel will soon join other prominent neo-Nazis in political obscurity. Whether he is deported to Germany to face a possible five year prison sentence, as he certainly should be, is in some sense immaterial. He is finished. He is through. His goose - to turn a phrase - is gassed.

Three years ago, Zundel fled Canada for Tennessee. But on 5 February 2003, he was arrested by American INS agents, deported back to Canada and banned from the US for twenty years. Never a Canadian citizen, Zundel had lost his landed immigrant status and so was immediately taken into custody.

An immigration hearing has been convened to determine whether Zundel's presence in Canada constitutes a danger to national security.

Things are not going well for Zundel. Two lawyers have already bailed out on him, and he is left with no one to defend him but Paul Fromm, who is acting as his "legal representative."

The state maintains that Zundel is a "leading distributor of neo-Nazi propaganda," an antisemite, a neo-Nazi, and a white supremacist. Predictably, Fromm and Zundel are claiming, somewhat ludicrously, that such terms are nothing but "innuendo and smear words." Well, Zundel may try to deny the bloody reality of the Nazi regime, but it is going to be quite a stretch for him to deny the reality of his own past."

You know Frank, the type of guys we hang out with on tuesday's when we play strip poker. My take is that to marginalize the immensity of Spiritual Science into a racist doctrine and have lots of little pamphlets, with racist and antisemite supremacy information scattered with RS's named dropped here and there and punctuated by some professional ideological rapists, trained ideological serial killers, who appear like they have reason to brand Waldorf and RS as a racist, will deflate, detour, deter and prevent potential Waldorf Parents, students, sane and balanced Goethean seekers, Ben Arrons work, the central core of the I Am and the intimacy and accuracy of the Christ Event from ever becoming an actual option or living choice once the land mines and racist plagues are planted all over the Cult of AS.

There by, Zundel was non-violent, he is excused; the opinionated ideological serial killers sent as hit squads to defame Steiner, never caused any real harm, they claim, because everything was just ideologies and they of course are not rooted to any inner moral development. At least not in students and not in Professors so they can stick nails whereever they want, because it doesn't hurt, because man has no soul, so what is the big difference between Serial propaganda rapists and the insanity of Zundel... not too friggin much!

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

holderlin66 wrote:

Zundel wrote:

"The Hitler We Loved and Why," a book reeking of antisemitism and of hatred towards people of color"

Bradford Adds;

He also wrote the musical, remember: Come on Frank, sing it with me.

Germany was having trouble, what a sad, sad story Needed a new leader to restore its former glory Where oh where was he? Where could that man be? We looked around, and then we found, the man for you and me, And now it's ...

Springtime for Hitler and Germany,
Deutschland is happy and gay.
We're marching to a faster pace,
Look out, here comes the master race.

Springtime for Hitler and Germany,
Winter for Poland and France.
Springtime for Hitler and Germany,
Come on, Germans, go into your dance ...

I was born in Dusseldorf, and that is why they call me Rolf. Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party.

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
(Gun fires twice)
Goose-step's the new step today
(Machine gun fires)
Bombs falling from the skies again,
(Bomb falls and explodes)
Deutschland is on the rise again

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
U-boats are sailing once more
[woman's voice]: "Well! Talk about bad taste!" Springtime for Hitler and Germany Means ... that ... soon we'll be going ... We've got to be going ... You know we'll be going to ... WAR!

...................................................................................................................................

From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:22 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

Hey, Bradford,

If I never thank you for your brilliant mails, it's because I like them but don't want to join the Bardford-Tarjei mutual admiration club. So if you don't hear anything from me in respect to a particulat post, it's because I am thankful (or I haven't read it). On the other hand, if I really don't agree, I let you know - nicht wahr? (Please note that I let you get away with that Skull and Bones bit from a sense of comradeship - or was it laziness?) Sometimes though, old buddy, I haven't the foggiest about what you're talking. The Zundel affair is a case in point. You give us a few lines and point us to some fruitcake "freedom" site, which seems to be defending Zundel's civil rights. So what was your point? I asked. Did you agree with the site that there's some kind of conspiracy against Zundel? And, I asked myself what it has to do with the accusations against Steiner. So, if you think I'm busting your thong too much, the obvious solution would be to make yourself clear in the first place.

Twang!
Frank

Frank Thomas Smith wrote:

Okay, Bradford, I'l bite. What's your point? And why is Zundel facing 5 years in prison in Germany? They don't mention that.

Frank

Zundel wrote:

"The Hitler We Loved and Why," a book reeking of antisemitism and of hatred towards people of color"

Well you old wily thong buster...Did I say thank-you for rightly clearing up, through your daughter, what was an obvious attempt to distort Steiner?

Thanks! I have a daughter and I know my daughter like your daughter will deeply take in the melodious "some shit on the internet says thanks" and the well weighed response, uh! (shrug) whatever!.

Well this Zundel, and why do I have to blubber to you, an internet junkie, who Zundel is? Why can't you put together the links that were offered? Shall I get you some tea while I'm up, because Diana says that's about all that's up these days. Soups On!

Zundel I guess we could say is an anti-semite; You know Frank, like us only different.

"Ernst Zundel will soon join other prominent neo-Nazis in political obscurity. Whether he is deported to Germany to face a possible five year prison sentence, as he certainly should be, is in some sense immaterial. He is finished. He is through. His goose - to turn a phrase - is gassed.

Three years ago, Zundel fled Canada for Tennessee. But on 5 February 2003, he was arrested by American INS agents, deported back to Canada and banned from the US for twenty years. Never a Canadian citizen, Zundel had lost his landed immigrant status and so was immediately taken into custody.

An immigration hearing has been convened to determine whether Zundel's presence in Canada constitutes a danger to national security.

Things are not going well for Zundel. Two lawyers have already bailed out on him, and he is left with no one to defend him but Paul Fromm, who is acting as his "legal representative."

The state maintains that Zundel is a "leading distributor of neo-Nazi propaganda," an antisemite, a neo-Nazi, and a white supremacist. Predictably, Fromm and Zundel are claiming, somewhat ludicrously, that such terms are nothing but "innuendo and smear words." Well, Zundel may try to deny the bloody reality of the Nazi regime, but it is going to be quite a stretch for him to deny the reality of his own past."

You know Frank, the type of guys we hang out with on tuesday's when we play strip poker. My take is that to marginalize the immensity of Spiritual Science into a racist doctrine and have lots of little pamphlets, with racist and antisemite supremacy information scattered with RS's named dropped here and there and punctuated by some professional ideological rapists, trained ideological serial killers, who appear like they have reason to brand Waldorf and RS as a racist, will deflate, detour, deter and prevent potential Waldorf Parents, students, sane and balanced Goethean seekers, Ben Arrons work, the central core of the I Am and the intimacy and accuracy of the Christ Event from ever becoming an actual option or living choice once the land mines and racist plagues are planted all over the Cult of AS.

There by, Zundel was non-violent, he is excused; the opinionated ideological serial killers sent as hit squads to defame Steiner, never caused any real harm, they claim, because everything was just ideologies and they of course are not rooted to any inner moral development. At least not in students and not in Professors so they can stick nails whereever they want, because it doesn't hurt, because man has no soul, so what is the big difference between Serial propaganda rapists and the insanity of Zundel... not too friggin much!

...................................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:17 am
Subject: The Cult of Tazbrad (was: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.)

At 19:22 09.03.2004, Frank wrote:

Hey, Bradford,

If I never thank you for your brilliant mails, it's because I like them but don't want to join the Bardford-Tarjei mutual admiration club.

It's called The Cult of Tazbrad. Bob Dylan is one of the honorary members without knowing it.

Tarjei

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: Number of Self Proclaimed racists/Columbine.

Frank Thomas Smith wrote:

Hey, Bradford,

(Please note that I let you get away with that Skull and Bones bit from a sense of comradeship - or was it laziness?) Sometimes though, old buddy, I haven't the foggiest about what you're talking. The Zundel affair is a case in point. You give us a few lines and point us to some fruitcake "freedom" site, which seems to be defending Zundel's civil rights. So what was your point? I asked. Did you agree with the site that there's some kind of conspiracy against Zundel?

Duh SPEakcurs Meanie!!!!
by OB wan Kinobie

My take is that to marginalize the immensity of Spiritual Science into a racist doctrine and have lots of little pamphlets, with racist and antisemite supremacy information scattered with RS's named dropped here and there and punctuated by some professional ideological rapists, trained ideological serial killers, who appear like they have reason to brand Waldorf and RS as a racist, will deflate, detour, deter and prevent potential Waldorf Parents, students, sane and balanced Goethean seekers, Ben Arrons work, the central core of the I Am and the intimacy and accuracy of the Christ Event from ever becoming an actual option or living choice once the land mines and racist plagues are planted all over the Cult of AS.

[There by, Zundel was non-violent, he is excused;] the opinionated ideological serial killers sent as hit squads to defame Steiner, never caused any real harm, they claim, because everything was just ideologies and they of course are not rooted to any inner moral development. At least not in students and not in Professors so they can stick nails whereever they want, because it doesn't hurt, because man has no soul, so what is the big difference between Serial propaganda rapists and the insanity of Zundel... not too friggin much!

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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