The Tabla Rosa

From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:41 pm
Subject: The Tabla Rosa

The Borca or organ of speech development is very enhanced by the dexterity of finger play and actual Handwork. In specific Speech essays Steiner had mentioned the Borca organ. Stroke victims, depending on the right or left side of the brain incapacity, develop different symptoms either in motor or speech aphasia.

However it takes a different capacity for the adult to tell if someone is speaking out of the left side of their mouth or the right side of their mouth. In fact certain facial distortions can appear, not only from a stroke but from the abuse of speaking distortions out of the side of ones mouth.

W.C. Fields constantly brought to expression a quality, a kind of an aside of Luciferic or Ahrimanic commentary to go hand in hand with the funny situations he found himself in. Groucho Marx also exhibited this quality of dual commentary. But as an unconscious quality it can become imprinted into the etheric gesture of the face. You can detect a cute little wrinkle on one side of the face or the other, and naturally this doesn't mean the person is speaking badly out of the side of their mouths, but sometimes has wry sense of humor. However in certain used car salesmen one should pay attention as the one side wrinkle gets twitchy.

To further discover some of the unexplored country that Steiner had given himself the task to explore, we can applaud and merge with all that biology and neural science can tell us about the pathways of brain formation and nerve developmental skills that education can not only approach but sometimes correct. There remains sensitive areas where the hardwiring of the brain is still subject to correction.

All of this has to do with the argument of the Tabla Rosa, the unwritten or the faintly borrowed etheric scroll we enter life with. What is written, under the surface of that ancient Etheric Scroll that humanity connects to and what do they bring to it as individuals? What will the Astral body write onto the hardwiring of the brain? And how can these budding capacities lead themselves to rich common sense in the upcoming emotional sentient soul development, intellectual soul development and ripening Consciousness Soul development?

But this hardwiring of the tiny child and the talent and capacity the child would like to develop remains in constant warfare with our educational understanding. The Tabla Rosa theory is one of the most interesting. Early pre-school computer generated instruction pressures, or late developing readers and spellers, are placed on the conveyor belt and instead of keeping the (unexamined) etheric limber and malleable as the astral seats itself, like a Dentist 'seats' a tooth, there is a rush to hardwire the child and fix and solidify the formative forces of the etheric with premature, pressed intellectualism. Hurry Up and Be Just like us adults- get thee to the mall and have fun. Share fashion tips with mommy at age six.

http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Education/19190821a01.html

"Now when the child has come forth on to the physical plane, we must realise what has really happened for him in the transition from a spiritual to a physical plane. Firstly, we must recognise that the human being is really composed of two members. Before the human being comes down to earth a union is entered into between the spirit and the soul — meaning by spirit what for the physical world of to-day is still entirely hidden, and what in Spiritual Science we call Spirit-Man, Life-Spirit, Spirit-Self. These three members of man's being are present in a certain way in the supersensible sphere to which we must now work our way through.

And between death and a new birth we do already stand in a certain relationship to Spirit-Man, Life-Spirit, Spirit-Self. Now the force which proceeds from this trinity permeates the Soul element in man: Consciousness Soul, Intellectual or Mind Soul, and Sentient Soul. And if you were to observe the human being when, having passed through the existence between death and a new birth, he is just preparing to descend into the physical world, then you would find the spiritual which we have just described united with the soul. Man descends, as it were, as Spirit-Soul or Soul-Spirit from a higher sphere into earthly existence. He clothes himself with earthly existence.

In a similar way we can describe the other member of man's being which unites itself with the one just described. We can say: down there on the earth the Spirit-Soul is met by what arises through the processes of physical inheritance. And now the Soul-Spirit or Spirit- Soul meets with the Life-Body in such a way that two trinities are united with two other trinities.

In the Spirit-Soul: Spirit-Man, Life-Spirit and Spirit-Self are united with that which is soul, namely: Consciousness-Soul, Intellectual Soul and Sentient Soul. These two trinities are united with one another, and descend into the physical world where they are now to unite with the Sentient or Astral body, Etheric body and Physical body.

But these in turn are united — first in the body of the mother and then in the physical world — with the three kingdoms of the physical world: the mineral, the plant and the animal kingdoms. So that here again, two trinities are united with one another"

Bradford continues;

This is no empty glass. Nor can we say that know what the Angels and the higher being of the child has decided as their next capacity to further their higher development. Certainly it is living in this age of hyper intellectual and techno/materialism.

No Child is exactly a Tabla Rosa, but something carried and about to be planted, etherically, in the soil of Earthly Destiny arises with the child in our midst. What has time given to all of us, and what does time invest for the child to carry us into the future, depends very much if the child is educated on thorny ground; if the child has its innocence pecked away by birds; if the child is stuck in the projects and high rises on stony ground and can find no roots to grow into its capacities..we face various destiny riddles that confound and give mixed signals to educators.

It can be the case that the parents have a materialistic outlook, but they are good parents and so the accelerated climate of fashion, malls, technology, movies and celebration of the beauty and normalness of their child, merely hands over idealized materialism without giving them the tools to be different and seek the undiscovered country of their souls and spirits. Well at least they are nice materialists and who says everyone has an interest in "The Twilight Zone" some people just thrive on sappy love stories.

Previously I sketched the hidden etheric background of the curriculum in this manner:

"We call Dr. Steiner's fully researched and first of its kind outline of actual unfolding development of how the uncoiling of the hidden memory of a pre-existing human being, as it unfolds itself, uncoils itself, unwinds itself through his/her etheric memory sheath that is connected to the cultural epochs, that we all experienced in ancient times, part of the scroll of the memory of humanity, we call this a Science. It is not merely the change of teeth and a physical expression, but the inner education of the child is unfolding in itself an etheric memory of mankind. There look the Plant unfolds and at first it is just green like every other plant, but we see, ah-ha, it will be a Rose or a Lily..the etheric is the very nature of us being particpants in mankind and human history. This is a science.

The Waldorf Curriculum is the first of its kind to understand that a child is not a Tabla Rosa or an empty scroll, but hidden in the unfolding development of a child are the lost experiences of ancient times. "

The quality of what we carry into a classroom is an undetected climate and an atmosphere of light or grey shades. This undetected light has a nourishing quality and is truly detected by the children and students. They either thrive and find themselves working in the glow; or they wrangle, are miscued and mixed up in the foundations of human substance because the teacher cannot integrate both science of spirit and science of matter in their beings. The pointers are wrong and the compasses fail to detect a true north.

Steiner;

"to perceive the significance of the fact that man is effective in the world not only through what he does, but above all through what he is. Truly, my dear friends, it makes a very great difference whether one teacher of the school or another comes through the classroom door to any group of children. There is a big difference; and the difference is not merely that the one teacher is more skilful in his practice than the other. No, the main difference — the one that is really influential in teaching — lies in what the teacher bears within him, as his constant trend of thought, and carries with him into the classroom. A teacher who occupies himself with thoughts of the evolving human being will work very differently upon his pupils from a teacher who knows nothing of all these things, and never gives them a thought."

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From: golden3000997
Date: Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The Tabla Rosa

Isn't it "Tabula Rasa" - "Erased Tablet?" or "Blank Slate" - hey do a Google on Tabula Rasa!! What a variety of stuff!

But I like the Tabla Rosa (Rosy Drum) idea - like a rosebud that has yet to unfold! Picture a Tabla style drum - kind of an "hour glass" shape base (very feminine) with a skin stretched over it. A vessel for rhythm - beat, beat, softly the rhythm of heart and lung. The baby is born all rosy and softly drumming its heart drum!

: ) Christine

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:37 am
Subject: Re: The Tabla Rosa

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~hching/archives/000024.html

Tabla Rosa
my mind is empty.
a blank piece of paper,
for people to write on.
words go in, nothing saved.
invisible ink, disappearing in an instant.
tiny gnomes, erasing to their hearts content,
complete darkness, I space out.
my favorite pastime,
devoid of thoughts.

http://www.coe.tamu.edu/~epsy/cded/olexey1.htm

John A Locke's (1632-1704) two great works, Essay on the Human Understanding and Some Thoughts Concerning Education include ideas that remain influential in guiding educational practices through contemporary times. Locke advocated the notion that education should prepare an individual for practical life through instruction in the manual and mechanical trades. His concepts of the mind as a "tabla rosa" or blank slate, the creation of working schools for poor children, and the importance of physical exercise as a part of education remain part of his legacy.

Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) combined the works of Comenius and Locke

3(b). Tabula Rasa & Empiricism:

Ultimately, in his acceptance of the existence of God, Locke was a dualist -- though only barely so; he did not consider man to be a divine creature fixed with ideas on coming into this world. Locke was an empiricist, viz., all knowledge comes to us through experience. "No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience."

There is no such thing as innate ideas; there is no such thing as moral precepts; we are born with an empty mind, with a soft tablet (tabula rasa) ready to be writ upon by experimental impressions. Beginning blank, the human mind acquires knowledge through the use of the five senses and a process of reflection. Not only has Locke's empiricism been a dominant tradition in British philosophy, but it has been a doctrine which with its method, experimental science, has brought on scientific discoveries ever since, scientific discoveries on which our modern world now depends.

Bradford comments;

Well I kinda like the unopened bud of an unseen rose flourishing in the etheric. However Tabula Rasa is the coin of the realm. Golden, magnificent on the John's outline. Now we come to Locke and Comenius. Comenius and Bacon worked together and as advanced thinkers, nobody could get upset with the idea that a little child is a waxy, (read etheric) unwritten slate.

Back before chalkboards and notebooks, with sharpened pencils they wrote on clay tablets with a stylus. This transition to hardwiring, almost like going into a chip factory and getting your own little pentium imprinted standardized educational model for ready made hardwiring to the the mental landscape of culture. Are we to see individual developments or mere standardized low ceiling mind cavities filled with pleasant hypocrisy? Are are there higher frontiers of inner and brilliant development beyond this low ceiling?

Oh alright, so our concepts became a little mechanized. Still Locke had good intentions. Comenius and Bacon had good intentions. Comenius and Bacon go back a long way. Back to Arab Islam taking tea with Woodrow Wilson. Comenius brought Illustration for education. Printing up nice textbooks, certainly has helped education.

So then comes the fine tuning of exactly what is written and unwritten as the slip stream of the soul and spirit glides into fusion with mineral/bone; plant;etheric; animal;nervous sytem and hard wiring serving the Personality. WE can say plant/lymphatic as well. We can say Animal/astral as well. The lower triad meets up with the higher triads and builds a new personality, A Virgin, unique Time Being.

Now naturally one can come to the conclusion that we are just as well without these far reaching spiritual scientific ideas as with them. Meaning, who needs to feel that a child is coming from somewhere? Why is the curriculum of Waldorf recalling, as in EDU-CATION a picture language of the ancient past, to learn alphabet through picture consciousness? Is this not recapitulation? Did we once have picture consciousness before abstract intellect?

Why do we bring third graders into the Etheric/Light and Biblical tales, even tales of the Saints? Why would we RE-COLLECT the fragments of the Ether of civilization, where all humnaity have their roots? And so the Curriculum of Waldorf unfolds a tale of humanity and the child unfolds as it begins restoring what it might have experienced in earlier culture epochs.

Because the blueprints of the Tabula Rasa are massive memory imprints in the ether that are also carried in the progressive stream of human development. But, as previously stated, can't we just take the child as it is? Isn't it enough that here is a little creature carried in the stream of the human family? We realize that each of these little creatures bear something that is very different even from their parents. They carry Time and the Evolutionary development forwards. That there comes even a struggle, or it did in the past, that the child may or may not pursue their father's beruf or profession.

Then there is the Bach family Ear for Music coming down the pike of very clear capacity and etheric forces that were site specific to the Bach family and, to the elemental forces of the Region around Wartburg where the Minstrel War and Klingsor met the Grail singer Wolfram von Eshenbach.

Then there was a gathering of Grail and Arthurian souls, following the westward rising of the Christ Sun. Were some of those gathered there once gathered around the Last Supper? Do our children carry unknown and specifc capacities that rise to meet the higher deveopments of Consciousness Soul and Spirit Self? Is there any value to seeing that beyond Intellectual brain development, there is also thinking and Spiritual capacities that will develop even higher phases of what we now pride ourselves in as techno/materialism?

What experience do different languages, races, cultures give to the unfolding soul? Questions upon questions. But the scaffolding of the Waldorf Curriculum opens for all souls a model of humanities wide, grand and heroic memory, and the curriculum builds, builds toward stronger and stronger mental, abstract and richer capacities intimate comlexities carried in the Sentient, Intellectual and Consciousness Soul. These solid individual Personality foundations make possible the seeds of Spirit Self, Life Spirit and in the far distant future, Spirit Man.

As this stage approaches, and even earlier we have arrived at Saints, the Science of Saints and the mysteries of matter that now we only guess at and are enamored and mentally devoted more to the destructive potential of Light instead of the super spiritual science of Love that each child will one day mature into.

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From: winters_diana
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:52 am
Subject: Re: The Tabla Rosa

Bradford, as usual, I may not really be following you, and I confess I can't read your posts in their entirety. But in reply to this:

This transition to hardwiring, almost like going into a chip factory and getting your own little pentium imprinted standardized educational model for ready made hardwiring to the the mental landscape of culture.

My view is that there is a lot of paranoia around technology and its supposed dire effects, talk of how we all being standardized or turned into computers. I think every culture hardwires people to a preferred mental landscape. Maybe we get the culture we deserve? There is plenty to criticize, but to some of us, what anthroposophy offers in contrast was not an improvement.

Waldorf schools try to imprint the standardized mental landscape of anthroposophy. They advise families to limit TV, electronic media, and even books for as long as possible, in order to keep the "blank slate" free for their notions to be impressed. (Mainstream culture is their competition, in other words.) The high-falutin' talk of universal spiritual development is self-serving.

Why is the curriculum of Waldorf recalling, as in EDU-CATION a picture language of the ancient past, to learn alphabet through picture consciousness? Is this not recapitulation?

"Recapitulation" of pictorial consciousness to learn the alphabet is useless, and a hindrance to literacy. It goes against everything that is known about how children acquire literacy. The letters are abstract symbols corresponding to sounds, and do not relate to pictures of fish and waves and mountains. Writing systems evolved over millennia, and are always imperfect. To ask the children to "recapitulate their development" is like asking them to invent the wheel every morning. Teach them the code, instead, so they can read instead of meditate on symbols.

the Curriculum of Waldorf unfolds a tale of humanity and the child unfolds as it begins restoring what it might have experienced in earlier culture epochs.

Maybe I'm a simpleton, Bradford, but for me it seems enough for the children to learn their history through reading and writing. We hope they can participate imaginatively, and a good teacher aims for this, but to ask them to spiritually re-enact earlier cultural epochs seems preposterous, and an imposition on the children. Quit asking children to "carry Time" and "Evolution." Narrow down the teacher's job description a bit. We have a big literacy crisis in this country. Focus on reading and math.

If people don't think anthroposophic dogma is imposed in Waldorf schools, whew, Bradford . . .

Were some of those gathered there once gathered around the Last Supper?

Please! A teacher looking at her/his students wondering if some of these individuals were once gathered around the Last Supper is nearly guaranteed to be a disaster in the classroom.

In fairness to Waldorf teachers, I certainly think most do not have time to spend on this sort of nonsense, Bradford.
Diana

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:00 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Tabla Rosa

Bradford writes:

Because the blueprints of the Tabula Rasa are massive memory imprints in the ether that are also carried in the progressive stream of human development. But, as previously stated, can't we just take the child as it is? Isn't it enough that here is a little creature carried in the stream of the human family? We realize that each of these little creatures bear something that is very different even from their parents. They carry Time and the Evolutionary development forwards. That there comes even a struggle, or it did in the past, that the child may or may not pursue their father's beruf or profession.

********************

I don't understand what you are trying to say, Bradford. There can't be any "blueprints" on a Tabula Rasa - because it is BLANK. The "Tabula Rasa" concept in Education is one of the main educational theories still in use today in the general system. But it has been replaced to a great extent by the educational theory of genetics. As Steiner describes in "Study of Man", the prevelant educational theory of his day and ours is that a child is like a great Head, with something (the rest of the body) dangling down underneath like a cuttlefish. The job of teachers (status quo) is to INSTRUCT - to fill up this octopus head with information and get the child to spit it back. What EDUCATORS must do, according to Steiner, is to try to find what is already in there and to draw it out. The basic assumption is the polar opposite of the Tabula Rasa. The working premise in Waldorf Education is that the "soul" of the child comes into the body from a Pre-Natal existence and therefore is not blank at all, but carries with it past knowledge and experience. Of course, this cannot be utilized by the individual until the body (or bodies) have developed enough to allow it to unfold. The task of the Waldorf teacher and of course, Waldorf Parents, is to assist in the development of the physical, etheric and astral bodies in such a way as to allow for the optimum unfolding of the pre-natal thoughts, intentions, sympathies and antipathies of the individual who is the child in front of them. This is the "Riddle of the Child" that Steiner spoke about so often.

I was gently correcting you, Bradford in your using the wrong words to begin your thesis with. They were so wrong, that I was trying to take them as you wrote them and find meaning in them, and I did. But the words you used were almost polar opposite from what you were intending to say.

Now, today, education theory, inspired by Ahriman, contradicts the concept of the Tabula Rasa, the Blank Slate yet corrupts the meaning and reality of Pre-Natal existence. In Ahrimanic education, the soul is still "blank" at conception and birth, but the BODY is not. The Physical Body contains the Blueprint - the DNA. Everything that the individual can be and will be is already imprinted, laid out, Set in Stone!!! The Genetic Code determines all. The Bach family was that way because of a dominant gene that got passed down bodily, not because of a Spiritual Soul Group of Individual Spirits united by their mutual love of music who Decide before birth to get born into the same family for mutual love, support and musical education. Oh no!! This kind of thinking won't do in today's economy!! There is no Empirical Proof of such a thing happening or even the possibility of its happening. Whereas, "we" can Prove the Reality of
Genetics!! How? By our ability to consciously manipulate genes in a human body and get verifiable results. True, the results we have gotten so far are limited, and the claims made for the future of genetic manipulation are wildly speculative, but the Reality of the Genetic Code has (in a relatively short time) become Set in Stone as the Belief System of our age. It is also the only widespread working paradigm in State and most Private education.

To claim to Educate the Child with "methods" that arise from a given pre-conception that he or she has a fully "educated" soul already inside the body (it's there, it just can't express itself yet) is a totally radical concept for our day and age. In fact, really, for all of recorded Western Civilization. Even in Greece, students were pretty much "empty vessels" for the teachers to pour their "wisdom" into. Think of Aristotle and Alexander. True, some pre-natal existence was imagined in the form of "destiny", but Aristotle didn't waste time on wondering what was inside Alexander that needed to come out. He was only concerned about what he could put into Alexander that would influence him and be of value in his future decision making.

In the Middle Ages, a popular Educational Theory was that if was most efficacious to beat ones students, as not only were the vessels empty, but it was easier to pour learning into them if you made a hole in their heads first, because they were made of very dense material to begin with.

Please bear in mind that, apart from a MINUTE few exceptions, we are talking about the education of MALE human beings here. The education of females for anything but "gentle occupations" is an incredibly recent development in human society. And the WIDESPREAD education of females for unlimited vocational possibilites is of the past 50 years at most. There may have been other forms of education in feminine tradition down through the ages, but it is not what has been taught in colleges, traditionally.

As far as "taking the child as it is?" (see above), we really can't afford to do that. In a way, that is exactly what Ahrimanic Education does. It says "what you see is what you get". There is the Genetic Blueprint - Set in Stone. You can only better or worsen it so far. You can test it, examine it by various means, medical, psychological, sociological and determine the worth and capacities of each individual at a very young age. After that, it's all just training to make him or her fit into the most appropriate slot in society. And if there are problems in behavior or cognition, our best scientific minds will come up with drugs, behavior modification techniques and discipline systems to help "make it fit". If all that still doesn't work, well, there is always the Army or prison.

My father, a military man ended his life riddled by cancer and in an advanced stage of Parkinson's Disease. I saw him LITERALLY TURNED TO STONE. And I remember my mother saying that the doctors' primary theory is that the cause was SOMETHING (they were not really sure WHAT, perhaps a virus, but Something that enters a person's system at around FIVE YEARS OLD!!!!! Do you GET that??? Something that enters the human being at around 5 years old that can literally turn him or her into STONE.

Go get out your Grimms - how many fairy tales can you find where people are turned to stone?? Any bells ringing yet?

By the way, has ANYONE read my articles on Waldorf Education posted on both group sites? I uploaded a new one "Religion in the Waldorf School" which I think introduces the concept of pre-natal existence to Waldorf Parents pretty well. I don't think that anyone on this planet has read it yet, though. Want to be the first?

Christine

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From: winters_diana
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:12 am
Subject: Re: The Tabla Rosa

Christine,

Everything that the individual can be and will be is already imprinted, laid out, Set in Stone!!! The Genetic Code determines all.

This is a bit of oversimplification, don't you think? Geneticists do not say, "The genetic code determines all."

I uploaded a new one "Religion in the Waldorf School" which I think introduces the concept of pre-natal existence to Waldorf Parents pretty well. I don't think that anyone on this planet has read it yet, though. Want to be the first?

Christine, I gotta get away from this Ahrimanic device I have spent the past 2 hours sitting at :) but perhaps I will try this weekend to be among the first on the planet to read your article. Thanks, I enjoy your contributions.

Diana

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:03 am
Subject: Re: The Tabla Rosa

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, golden3000997 wrote:

I was gently correcting you, Bradford in your using the wrong words to begin your thesis with. They were so wrong, that I was trying to take them as you wrote them and find meaning in them, and I did. But the words you used were almost polar opposite from what you were intending to say.

Now, today, education theory, inspired by Ahriman, contradicts the concept of the Tabula Rasa, the Blank Slate yet corrupts the meaning and reality of Pre-Natal existence. In Ahrimanic education, the soul is still "blank" at conception and birth, but the BODY is not. The Physical Body contains the Blueprint - the DNA.

Bradford thinks, reeeall hard;

As for as I know, Ahriman is still trying to locate the Soul. There is a new film out called "21 grams"..you know the old idea about weighing the body before and after death? If it weighs less, (21 grams) Jeff Foxworthy might say, "You may have a soul". I think the jury is still out on Soul. It is a beautiful, old, rustic, poetic word and one which is quaint to sink and immerse ourselves in. As the dictionary describes Francis Bacon.

Im*merse"\, a. [L. immersus, p. p. of immergere. See {Immerge}.]
Immersed; buried; hid; sunk. [Obs.] ``Things immerse in matter.'' --Bacon.

http://www.indiewire.com/movies/movies_030908grams.html

Couch Potatoe is a good word for Soul. Sort of a Vegetative lump of unwritten DNA, or as you said so wisely Christine, My Genes made me do it! Fate, Matter has me by the short hairs. I am a Pre-determined bio-carbon mass of jingling wires and tendons. As Paul Harvey would say, now you know the rest of the story.

Locked down cloning codes (not to be confused with Locke) will cement the material 'Kid' into a form fitting concrete overcoat he can't get out of. I hope you understand my Socraticness, his Royal Socraticness, and I took yours the way you took mine. I thought it nice to ask some simple questions. And as usual I loved your uptake. As I would accuse you of, and I'm sorry to have to bring it to you this way, Christine, but you are quick on the uptake. There I said it.

Hardwiring is a nice term. Genetic and DNA coded hardwired imperatives that determine as in determinism, as in Fate, as in Allah made me do it or the Bible is a lump of 2004 year old oatmeal that one should eat while young in a trailer park, so that Goodness and Mercy shall follow you all the days of your dumb a-- loaded down life.

21 grams of squeezed out Soul vapor,might be some sort of gas that escapes, some say it smells like Roses, some like a friggin out house. The thing I like about AT is addressing the terms of our Time and not losing a hair of Michael School boon.

The song quoted by our now departed Zappa was simply, simply brilliant. Who would a thought that we could catch up to our poets and turn in our Time Cards for Spiritual Science with overtime. Accrued Interest on the initial investments, and we have guys/gals who can see it, talk, walk and make such entrenched boo-hoos in Ahriman's closet, almost wish they were us. For this is not your parents dogma zone!

Now, don't you think that what goes out in vapor is exactly what Dr. Steiner said goes into the Child as embryo investment? In otherwords, by the logic of it, if 21 grams goes out, 21 grams went in..Or..if there were 24 grams going out, did that blubbering chunk of DNA gain something or lose something? Is it better to weigh less when coming in or less when going out? Questions - Questions - Questions.

Which brings me to Fifth Grade Egyptian drawings. As you may remember Christine!!!! I have it on good authority that you do remember, how Steiner thought it wise to make our own books and drawings instead of just following the ready to wear, mass produced idea of Pyramid national geographic color shots - which are all so well done you know -, or, to my point, MAAT. The Egyptian goddess MAAT.

But Comenius was a sincere soul and like Bacon, set the ground rules for the education that we prize today. I may have to pull out Comenius to let those who claim standardization and pentium processed brain matter is just dandy.

How much does the Soul weigh when it vacates the body and what the hell were these Egyptians Thinking? I think things like this should not be taught in school, unless the children can see a cadaver up close and personal and weigh it before and aftewards. That is why Old people should come in and read fairy stories to children, you never know when a perfect example of croaking might reveal a major scientific discovery?

What good is Picture Consciousness, accept as a little side issue of being able to Read or get a job at DreamWorks? I think Socratic method is much different than dogma. I mean anyone can play the fun and rewarding game, called "Steiner Says stand on your head" - "Steiner Says, don't be an Initiate when you tie your shoes or stand on one foot" - "Weigh the soul as it comes out of the body" - Ah-ha, I didn't say "Steiner Says".

So as Clint Eastwood would say, "The question you should be asking yourself is, do you weigh more, or do you weigh less when you leave your body?" Our mutual many sided discussion on Tabula Rasa clearly is a subject by which much pivots. Determinism and building pre-fab housing out of the cast off lower ego fragments, to secure, medicate and keep the nasty little bugger of Soul or 21 grams of sheer psychological disturbance from wrecking whole neighborhoods, must be Ahriman's job 1. Gotcha! I didn't Say "Steiner Says".

But what I am holding off for a later run, is walking through the Curriculum as a support to the scaffolding of the unfolding inner forces of physical, etheric, astral and higher level I AM seating..Seating of Teeth, Seating of the I AM on the journey of a Waldorf Model Educational system. So, do I think Tabula Rasa is a dead issue? No. I think it is the key issue and it is good to view it from several different angles. But that is my NSHO.

Thanks again, you late night rocker, golden mad, Christine.

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:17 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Tabla Rosa

Dear Ms. Winters,

Please be so good as to read the article that I have written and posted on our group site in the folder "Christine". It is called "The Waldorf Approach to Reading" and I think it will give you a bit different picture of what Waldorf Education can accomplish in terms of real literacy.

Thank you.
Christine

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:39 pm
Subject: Reply to Bradford - I think

Bradford writes:

Subj: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Tabla Rosa
Date: 1/17/2004 2:27:10 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: holderlin66

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,

(ME) (From Before)

golden3000997@c... wrote:

I was gently correcting you, Bradford in your using the wrong words to begin your thesis with. They were so wrong, that I was trying to take them as you wrote them and find meaning in them, and I did. But the words you used were almost polar opposite from what you were intending to say.

Now, today, education theory, inspired by Ahriman, contradicts the concept of the Tabula Rasa, the Blank Slate yet corrupts the meaning and reality of Pre-Natal existence. In Ahrimanic education, the soul is still "blank" at conception and birth, but the BODY is not. The Physical Body contains the Blueprint - the DNA.

(HIM)

Bradford thinks, reeeall hard;

As for as I know, Ahriman is still trying to locate the Soul. There is a new film out called "21 grams"..you know the old idea about weighing the body before and after death? If it weighs less, (21 grams) Jeff Foxworthy might say, "You may have a soul". I think the jury is still out on Soul. It is a beautiful, old, rustic, poetic word and one which is quaint to sink and immerse ourselves in. As the dictionary describes Francis Bacon.

(ME)

Well, if he can't find it, maybe it's because it is BLANK!!

(HIM)

Im*merse"\, a. [L. immersus, p. p. of immergere. See {Immerge}.]
Immersed; buried; hid; sunk. [Obs.] ``Things immerse in matter.'' --Bacon.

http://www.indiewire.com/movies/movies_030908grams.html

Couch Potatoe is a good word for Soul. Sort of a Vegetative lump of unwritten DNA, or as you said so wisely Christine, My Genes made me do it! Fate, Matter has me by the short hairs. I am a Pre-determined bio-carbon mass of jingling wires and tendons. As Paul Harvey would say, now you know the rest of the story.

(ME)

The above paragraph, I don't get at all. Are you being facetious with your definition of "soul"?

The way I understand it, the "Soul" is what arises in the interaction between the "Ego" or "Spirit" or "Individuality" of the person and a physical body on earth. The way I understand it, it is something which lives, moves and develops. The way I understand it, we "see" the soul of a person in its Expression - the way the person walks, talks, looks, laughs, cries, makes music, makes love, makes money, even! The way I understand it, the Soul exists only in Time - like Music. It is not static, like a painting, drawing or sculpture. It is not measureable by weight or number, except as we measure Time on earth. We can say "That soul lived on earth from 1927 to 1972." We can say "That soul produced paintings from 1456 to 1499." But we can't say "That soul weighs 21 grams." If the soul had weight, even 21 grams worth, it would then have a "place". It would exist in Space, not Time. Its' MANIFESTATIONS exist in Space, but it's REALITY exists in Time. It is a continuous blip on the Space/Time continuum and it disappears from the Space Time continuum at death. At Death, that which it has developed that is compatible with the Spiritual World goes on with the Spirit or "I" of the Individual. That which is compatible only with earth matter and earth forces "dies" - becomes one with the earth. The MANIFESTATIONS or EXPRESSIONS of the Soul that are compatible with Humanity live on in the "Souls" of Humanity living in the Space/ Time continuum.

To help the "Soul" of a child in Education is to respect and honor the way it Expresses the Eternal Individuality of the Child and any MANIFESTATION that it expresses of that Eternal "I" which carries everything that has remained of former Souls that was compatible with Spirit and therefore able to be brought forward again. To try to "examine" the Soul of the Child in a prurient desire for spiritual titillation as I understand Ms. Winters to suggest, would be wrong on many levels and an abuse of spiritual knowledge. To allow the Child to manifest itself while, as I have said before, giving him or her appropriate Forms of expression and appropriate social boundaries of behavior, is to honor and support the continuing development of the Soul in the present Body.

(HIM)

Locked down cloning codes (not to be confused with Locke) will cement the material 'Kid' into a form fitting concrete overcoat he can't get out of. I hope you understand my Socraticness, his Royal Socraticness, and I took yours the way you took mine. I thought it nice to ask some simple questions. And as usual I loved your uptake. As I would accuse you of, and I'm sorry to have to bring it to you this way, Christine, but you are quick on the uptake. There I said it.

(ME)

What are you accusing me of, exactly? Being too "quick" in my uptake? Or being so quick that I am prone to error? If the latter, then please criticize the errors, not the speed of delivery. I would probably make the same errors slowly.

(HIM)

Hardwiring is a nice term. Genetic and DNA coded hardwired imperatives that determine as in determinism, as in Fate, as in Allah made me do it or the Bible is a lump of 2004 year old oatmeal that one should eat while young in a trailer park, so that Goodness and Mercy shall follow you all the days of your dumb a-- loaded down life.

21 grams of squeezed out Soul vapor,might be some sort of gas that escapes, some say it smells like Roses, some like a friggin out house. The thing I like about AT is addressing the terms of our Time and not losing a hair of Michael School boon.

The song quoted by our now departed Zappa was simply, simply brilliant. Who would a thought that we could catch up to our poets and turn in our Time Cards for Spiritual Science with overtime. Accrued Interest on the initial investments, and we have guys/gals who can see it, talk, walk and make such entrenched boo-hoos in Ahriman's closet, almost wish they were us. For this is not your parents dogma zone!

Now, don't you think that what goes out in vapor is exactly what Dr. Steiner said goes into the Child as embryo investment? In otherwords, by the logic of it, if 21 grams goes out, 21 grams went in..Or..if there were 24 grams going out, did that blubbering chunk of DNA gain something or lose something? Is it better to weigh less when coming in or less when going out? Questions - Questions - Questions.

(ME)

What'choo talkin' 'bout Willis? Talk about quick on the uptake! Somebody put extra batteries in YOUR Bunny today!

(HIM)

Which brings me to Fifth Grade Egyptian drawings. As you may remember Christine!!!! I have it on good authority that you do remember, how Steiner thought it wise to make our own books and drawings instead of just following the ready to wear, mass produced idea of Pyramid national geographic color shots - which are all so well done you know -, or, to my point, MAAT. The Egyptian goddess MAAT.

But Comenius was a sincere soul and like Bacon, set the ground rules for the education that we prize today. I may have to pull out Comenius to let those who claim standardization and pentium processed brain matter is just dandy.

How much does the Soul weigh when it vacates the body and what the hell were these Egyptians Thinking? I think things like this should not be taught in school, unless the children can see a cadaver up close and personal and weigh it before and aftewards. That is why Old people should come in and read fairy stories to children, you never know when a perfect example of croaking might reveal a major scientific discovery?

(ME)

Does this stuff have to do with our "Tabula Rasa" discussion, or are you making some sort of reference to my article on reading? If it's about the article, I didn't say children should REMAIN in a Picture Conciousness!! I said that it was a necessary developmental step toward good, fluid abstract literacy.

(HIM)

What good is Picture Consciousness, accept as a little side issue of being able to Read or get a job at DreamWorks? I think Socratic method is much different than dogma. I mean anyone can play the fun and rewarding game, called "Steiner Says stand on your head" - "Steiner Says, don't be an Initiate when you tie your shoes or stand on one foot" - "Weigh the soul as it comes out of the body" - Ah-ha, I didn't say "Steiner Says".

So as Clint Eastwood would say, "The question you should be asking yourself is, do you weigh more, or do you weigh less when you leave your body?" Our mutual many sided discussion on Tabula Rasa clearly is a subject by which much pivots. Determinism and building pre-fab housing out of the cast off lower ego fragments, to secure, medicate and keep the nasty little bugger of Soul or 21 grams of sheer psychological disturbance from wrecking whole neighborhoods, must be Ahriman's job 1. Gotcha! I didn't Say "Steiner Says".

(ME)

You know, Bradford, it's Saturday, I think you should just have a beer and watch some football on TV. You need to chill.

(HIM)

But what I am holding off for a later run, is walking through the Curriculum as a support to the scaffolding of the unfolding inner forces of physical, etheric, astral and higher level I AM seating..Seating of Teeth, Seating of the I AM on the journey of a Waldorf Model Educational system. So, do I think Tabula Rasa is a dead issue? No. I think it is the key issue and it is good to view it from several different angles. But that is my NSHO.

(ME)

Um, could you just possibly, just this once, simply admit that you made a spelling boo-boo?

(HIM)

Thanks again, you late night rocker, golden mad, Christine.

(ME)

No problem, I already told you I don't have a life!

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:37 pm
Subject: Bradford - (what) I think

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, golden3000997 wrote:

(ME)

The above paragraph, I don't get at all. Are you being facetious with your definition of "soul"?

Bradford responds;

I was not only being facetious I am knocked off my rocking horse by what people consider SOUL and that they dare to grin and laugh at us when we attempt to make education and the development of the child REAL.

How rich it is to explore, draw, and tell the tale of MAAT. The weigher of Souls. How rich and wonderful it is for Waldorf students to create their own books, work on painting, colored pencils and writing, rather than getting spoon fed serial photos and stale ideas. There was MAAT and whole chunks of humanity truly held MAAT - The weigher of Soul - The Jusitice Scales, LibRA and the SCales of Justice in the Stars...as something REAL. For Them, back then.

Imagine the idea of NUT - a FEmale who changes form and position but actully spends her time in a kind of gymnastic position and the stars are her body. Do we, I know we do, but how can anyone not see how en-SOULed and potent becomes the sky when we look up at it and find all the stars. Would this inspire a future astronomer to love the Stars. Yes, and the seed is planted right then and there. Sometimes you are right on the spot when a wonder and awe tilts the souls, as if they have discovered something of their lost selves.

There is much that research, science, public school textbooks have that become even richer in the hands of a good Waldorf Teacher. But most important, is how the child discovers, lives into the Main Lesson or Specialty classes. What they bring, watching them learn to shape, beautify and dignify their pages. Watching how a Waldorf student matures into geometry and is able to draw with such confidence and hold ideas in their hands, their hearts and their minds.

Something meets the hidden ground of a child when you speak about MAAT, who weighs the souls of the Dead. We pause sometimes to consider what Doctors around Rembrandt's time tried to think about the soul and we compare that to Egypt. Just asking and looking at reality and how questions are brought. Perhaps a favorite pet had just died and we imagine its journey to the world of Maat and we imagine together how good and loyal and wonderful was such a lost and treasured pet. Look you there, Tweetie bird sitting on MAAT old feather.

What is a soul? Ah, the intitial question might arise do animals have souls? Already the world tells us one thing, but what do they have deep down inside of them? The Waldorf Teacher poses questions. And their answers are their answers, not good not bad, just allowed to hold the concept for a split second and look at it. Sometimes the silence is richer than anything we could express.

When they get dressed in Norse costumes and struggle to play Odhin or Loki or Fenrir...they bring things to the unfolding picture of how humanity has asked about Creation? What powers are in creation? The Norse may have done one thing and the Hindu's may have another.

Ah, are there patterns to both of them? Why can the human form be measured exactly by the hand size going exactly three times up the arm and the foot size going exactly four times up the leg? Riddles, wonders and questions, mostly integrated and brought into balance.

I brought an actual Wolf into my classroom to show my students what a Wolf was, felt and looked like along with our study of Rome. Wolves are big, they are not small. It could bound in three steps the length of the room. Now, let us see if the wolf will let us draw this specific wolf or is it restless? A man in the park I met, while doing this block, had a damned Wolf on leash, fairly tame. But it wasn't no little puppy dog.

The student isn't a Tabula Rosa, the student brings emotion, observation, warmth, beauty and SOUL out of its deep inward self. These weave themselves, with color, song, math, music and harmony into the Soul and Spirit foundations that the child brought with them when they incarnated. Is incarnation such a bad word? Do we have to run and hide from the word incarnation? That something is brought with the child that now borrows the one of a kind, form fitting, voice, bone, bright eyes of heredity to discover what it really thinks, what does it/she/he want to become?

Pardon me, but I consider people who fail to see the eye to eye, and heart to heart relationship of an Adult - an Adult who looks into the wide vistas of the World and Paints, writes Poems, reveals stunning chalk drawings, enters the mysteries of math and reveals patterns in numbers and meanings in numbers and connects all the disconnected scattered ideas and says, This Is a sample of an I AM. What shall you bring? I consider such female/male representatives gardners of the SOUL and Caretakers of the Spiritual.

And that dear friends is part of the rest of the story.


...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:39 pm
Subject: Tabla Rosa/ Tabula Rasa

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, holderlin66 wrote:

Bradford discussed;

Why do we bring third graders into the Etheric/Light and Biblical tales, even tales of the Saints? Why would we RE-COLLECT the fragments of the Ether of civilization, where all humnaity have their roots? And so the Curriculum of Waldorf unfolds a tale of humanity and the child unfolds as it begins restoring what it might have experienced in earlier culture epochs.

Because the blueprints of the Tabula Rasa are massive memory imprints in the ether that are also carried in the progressive stream of human development.

Bradford continues;

Now lets open the Tabula Rasa argument up wider and reveal its hidden sources. Since we don't pretend to be Initiates we need to see the full value of what a Christian Scientist thinks about the Waldorf methodology, or anyone for that matter. There are justified Intellectual Soul complaints, as Mike has clearly indicated. The Intellectual Soul or Rational Soul, (not enough self knowledge in Critics to understand the dangers of thinking the Universe is completed in the Intellectual Soul, too much pride and mistaking cunning and cleverness for the healthy capacity of the Intellectual SOUL) Certain things rub Waldorf Critics the wrong way. That is understandable.

So where are the roots of the discussion on Tabula Rasa? We are in the roots of the discussion but that doesn't mean that the prejudicial antagonism in the intellectual soul don't play a part. These complaints do play a part. The roots of the discussion start right here and in the previous threads of this topic. It originates in Socrates and Plato and is continued in Locke. The discussion of the Tabula Rasa are part of the foundations of what Plato and Socrates tried to indicate when the spiritual world was closer than it is in today's Intellectual Climate.

Has Steiner modelled an educational process that promotes the pro and con arguments that follow? Yes. Has Steiner made a Science of the unfolding Etheric Body so that we can see what the Soul/Spirit brings with it to the hereditary stream? Yes. Is it a perfectly running system? Of course Not. Is the model built upon Reality? More than any educational system has ever attempted. All of Spiritual Science allows all that Baconian Science brings, to Flower in the Spirit. Science like our intellects cannot see themselves or what humanity is attempting to grow towards. Spiritucal Science adds what is missing in Materialistic Science and completes it.

In other words, we hold in our minds eye the numbers of hundreds of thousands of souls that participated in the ancient cultural epochs, who went to their kind of church everyday, that had household altars, that studied in China - In INdia; Felt warmed by the Courage of the Norse; Experienced the dualism of Persia; Experienced Greek and Roman civilization; Walked with Moses; Felt the wonders of the Stars in NUT and the weighing of the SOUL and the after life in ancient Egypt. They felt the stir of the Renaissance, as pictures of Leonardo and Giotto and Raphael blew the doors off of "Picture This". Even gassed WWI trench warriors are coming back. All of them US.

Just common, shared and felt cultural experiences. We could point out with incarnational clarity how Kepler had expereinced the wonders of NUT, and these could be traced very far back in time. But rather than start there, lets start at the real expressed pros and cons that truly deal with Memory, ReCOLLECTING and reawakening experience that million upon millions of souls shared.

Real Arguments are justified as a sample of them appears. We hope you know how to connect to a two line address.

"Josh Wingenbach Sun, Jan 12, 2003 8:25 PM (#1 of 10)

Socrates felt that knowledge is like this analogy of mine: All knowledge and truth is in an eternal realm like a giant ball of gasseous knowledge that everything is at one time part of. After we are born we leave this realm of knowledge and are still a part of the whole, but disconnected with it. We then must remember everything as though we have amnesia.

One thing that I am not completely sure on is the relation he makes to past lives or reincarnation. If he sees truth as stemming from the previous this somewhat opposes reincarnation. If we are to gain knowledge through reincarnation, meaning we learn different things in different lives and have to recall what we learned and learn more in the next, then this seems to say truth is experience.

I do not agree with him completely, depending upon my momentary outlook. Right now I feel as though the slave could answer the mathematical problems because all complicated things are comprised of simple things that lead up to them. If someone has a basic understanding, then they can be explained told how to do a complicated task by relating it to something similar or by using general terms."

*******************************************

"Socrates believes or at least intuit's that the the truth is within. Is this inner-truth what I experience when I have an epiphany. When I'm reading something that "rings true" and I go "Ah-Ha!" or "Eureka" or "Holy Shit!" Is not that the greatest feeling, when all of the sudden things make sence, the fog lifts, and it seems to be that when this happens it is not some brand new idea that you've never thought about before, at least with me it's not. For me it is more of something being put in such a way, in a context, that makes things make sence. Loose ends of the brain suddenly tied together. Unresolved questions, unknot themselves and sunshine is allowed in once again. At times like this I feel the truth inside my self and the Truth in the world are finally getting to connect because my brain has tuned itself correctly so as to allow this to happen. Its not in our awareness, but in our interpretation.

We get told a great many things when we grow up about what is wrong, what is right. These things are true, these are not, they say, and we nod our heads, and write it in the space provided, and mark the correct circle with a #2 pencil, being sure not to erase and sticking with the first answer that comes to mind, because it is usually right, don't stress, relax, its only the SAT's and only your entire academic career on the line; there are five answers to choose from and ONLY ONE OF THEM IS RIGHT. We get information from our parents our priests our teachers our police officers our girlfriends our elders. We get it from scientists, philosophers, acedemics, commercials, poloticians and prophets. All of this is shoved at us from every conceivable direction from day one. No wonder are brains are muddled.

"The Truth is out There" That's why we spend so much money on books and education and more books and have teachers and preachers and therepists. The Buddha has a little smirk on his face, as he sits there not complaining about his ass getting numb, cause he's gotten his brain out of the way and is enjoying his inner truth while people argue all around him about the nature of reality. A guy from 874 (B.C. or A.D. I have no idea) named Abu Yazid Al-Bistami said "This thing that we tell of can never be found by seeking, yet only seekers find it." You look and you look and you look. You exhaust all possiblities and yourself and you were carrying it around inside of you the whole time."

*******************************************

"I don't believe that our souls know everything and we are just remembering what our souls have experienced in the past, and our teachers are not actually teachers at all, they are just tools to help us remember. If this were true then people wouldn't be the individuals they claim to be. And if this were also true, explain to me my inability to grasp certain concepts on various subjects.

What I do believe is that people think and come up with knowledge on their own. This is why we have the technology and conveniences today and not 500 years ago. We take what other people have learned during their lifetime and combine their knowledge with our own to make these great inventions.

There are a few especially gifted people out in the world who see more and comprehend more than most average people, but this is not because they remember, because if they remember then these thoughts have happened before and they would not be unique to the person having them now. These gifted people have a different way of thinking and comprehension that surpasses us and this is why they excel and come up with new inventions and theories."

*******************************************

anthony mckittrick (aj) Tue, Jan 14, 2003 3:49 PM (#4 of 10) Socrates and what he feels as knowledge are extremely different to the a-typical understanding I have of the subject. Superficially I back up the modern dictionary statement of knowledge being of understanding and comprehension, granted thus far in my account Socrates would probably go for this, it is on the subject. The key issue is how we learn not what.

Socrates delivers knowledge like a "midwife" when considering Plato's story about the interaction that took place with Meno's boy slave. Socrates prepares the questions prior to his asking with precision in which he prompts the boy, urging him onward to recall prior questions he asked in order for the boy to answer the question at hand. The issue Socrates pushes is that of the human ability of recollection, using this experiment concerning the mathematical approach, which is argued to be `more' absolute than other approaches in terms of having set limits and very defined answers, Socrates tries to promote his idea to Meno.

Now, whether or not recollection due to Socrates' belief of everything known at birth and the only barrier to infinite knowledge is that of unlocking your potential is neither right nor wrong. This is seen in the light of trying to prove or disprove it, which is highly unlikely in both cases. Socrates, one might say, foolhardily urges Meno to see things his way, and trying to prove something as complex as virtue and knowledge through recollection in something universal in order to prove his point…he unfortunately for me, used math.

Socrates and his universal truth is the underlying scheme for such a choice as using math for his idea as well as a slave boy. Nonetheless did the slave understand what Socrates was trying to show him than do I understand glacial motion. In my opinion, Socrates uses blatantly simple directions that show the boy the correct answer, granted simple questions help simplify problems. Yes, or no questions leave a 50/50 chance of being right. Give me those odds everyday and I'd consider myself a lucky guy!

Moreover on the yes or no leading questions I think math and a slave are of an interesting choice of subject matter. When I think of a slave I equate lack of education when considering math, let alone geometry in which Socrates uses. Socrates seems to understand the concept, but who knows how well and deep his knowledge really runs in trying to prod the boy in answering. Socrates for his day may have been a genius by the days standards and possibly by today's standards, however, who really knows how well his math helped lead him to ultimate truths when numbers were not as widely and deeply studied as they are today.

Socrates from my interpretation, and I'm not a literary critique, is of a person truly in the pursuit of universal answers to some of life's simplest questions. In doing so, interesting points and arguments on both right and wrong issues are brought to attention and he does extremely well in delving into both sides.

*******************************************

Lucas "Patso" Logan Tue, Jan 14, 2003 9:03 PM (#5 of 10)

I think we are avoiding the question. Or else I am just not understanding everyone's points.

The origin of "truth"seemed to be answered in the discussion on Monday. Socrates' experiment with the slave is used to prove that the "truth" lies deep within eveyone. That there is something deep within us all that connects us to ultimate reality. However, the presence and/or knowledge of the truth is absent in the majority of the human race. It is the ability to exploit the ultimate reality that is the real test. However, not the question I am going to(pardon the football slang) tackle right now. But I must go off course and first state an answer to the question(also in Monday's discussion) to "Did Socrates prove that the truth lies within everyone, whether they know it or not, in the slave experiment?

I believe that he did not prove his theory. He took a slave and asked yes or no questions. Any monkey can act like they understand what is being explained to them. Socrates does open a door to seek further knowledge by pointing out misconceptions to the slave but at no point does he prove that the slave knew the answers therefore the knowledge was hidden and needed to be (for lack of a better word) ignited by a teacher. He did not prove, with a geometric problem, that that each and every individual of the human race has the ultimate reality stored deep within them. He might have proven to himself, or Meno, that he is able to teach math to anyone he choses. He did not prove that in the human race there exists a deep connection to the "truth" in everyone that grants them the opportunity to become virteous. All in all, it was an piss poor example pulled out of the ass of a stubborn "temporary sophist" used to confuse the mind of an intellectually inferior gentlemen."

Bradford concludes;

Intelligence is a fine thing, but inability to re-COGNIZE, understand and RE-COLLECT the depth of these arguments that enter into Locke and Comenius, Bacon, Socrates and Plato and merely standing there pointing at Something so novel and incredible, as Touching into nooks and crannies of the previous holy, tragic, life changing and Destiny Awakening experienes of the entire scroll of mankind, reveals a dried up Intellectual Soul experience. Individual Souls bring with them Individual experiences just as we can concretely point to "The Youth of Nain son of the Widow" and connect his coma directly to an Initation experience he had in Egypt.

Most Waldorf Students come through richer, more saturated and with rich certainty that they can restore the missing pieces of their humanity. They can grasp the ideals of humanity. We now have before us a model of the physical, etheric, astral and higher self Seating of the Personality that not even Socrates could have completed.

So, another Clint Eastwood question: You have to ask yourselves, did Steiner take all that the Great Socrates and Plato attempted to do and bring it into workable form? Better than anyone has yet dared to think. But still, I know, we prefer to admire smaller minds, but it can be shown just how big this mighty Science of Etheric, Astral, Ego development is and how it contributes and helps Science flower into its own highest intentions. Steiner builds on humanites highest contributions and brings to Flower, intentions in Science that could hardly have been thought without Steiner.

Bradford

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:55 pm
Subject: Hebdomad

"The paradox of anthroposophy resides in the fact that something that is in reality a myth of the second order is proclaimed in the name of science."

Bradford comments;

What we have estabished thus far is that Locke, Socrates, Plato and Comenius have contributed to models of education. What makes Waldorf different in theory, is that Socrates tried to establish the idea that Truth, and the substance of Truth is something that we have come from. i.e. a Spiritual World. That indeed we carry the navigational equipment to understand Truth because we have lived and are even made of the substance of Truth.

It is verified in countless ways, that when the soul has had a brush with death, a brush with the threshold of the spiritusl world, a loosening of the etheric body takes place. This loosening of the etheric body was part of immersing and nearly drowning people in Rivers, as the John the Baptist experience has taught. The etheric would suddenly be loosened and one would see the Scroll of our life before our eyes and understand some of the secrets of biography.

There by in many different instances one could say that one has an Etheric body and that we bring with us various individualized experiences as well as 'a chip off the ole block' of the Etheric HUmanized Christ Being, that is in the little children. Suffer the little children for they are integrating, with Christ's help, their Etheric bodies into the steam of matter.

(Unlike his model, Comenius, Steiner also subdivides each hebdomad into three further sections of two years each.)

Johannes Amos Comenius (1592-1670) regards the plants to the education, virtue and Froemmigkeit as innate, which are however only unfolded by the education. The task comes to the education to obtain according to the entwicklungsstufen of the child these first bases from knowledge to.

Comenius developed first the tasks and the structure of a uniform educational system and derived from this the requirements and the concept of the nut/mother school. It recommends mothers during the first 6 lebensjahre, the mental and mental development of their children on the areas of the understanding, to the work, the arts, the language, to promote the custom and virtues and the religion.

The meaning Comenius for the development of the infant drawing lies in it that it submitted a scientifically justified concept as the first, the all-round promotion of the child covered. However its influence on the Kleinkindpaedagogik remained small, since its writings came to a large extent due to the 30jaehrigen of war into oblivion.

WHAT IS A HEBDOMAD?

Hebdomad, Heptagon, September.] One more than six; six and one added; as, seven days make one week. Seven sciences. See the Note under Science, n., 4. -- Seven stars (Astron.), the Pleiades. -- Seven wonders of the world. See under Wonders. -- Seven-year apple (Bot.), a rubiaceous shrub (Genipa clusiifolia) growing in the West Indies; also, its edible fruit. -- Seven-year vine (Bot.), a tropical climbing plant (Ipom&oe;a tuberosa) related to the morning-glory.

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Thus each individual has a spiritual nucleus which comes down before birth from the spiritual worlds to unite with the physical and mental envelope; at death, it detaches itself from man to be manifested again in his next life on earth. In the next reincarnation, and as a consequence of karma, i.e. the interweaving of successive human lives, the soul picks up on its thread of activity from the previous life. Steiner sees Karma as a question of individual development and thus follows up on the ideas first voiced by the German idealist E.G. Lessing. In Steiner's anthroposophy, the law of reincarnation leads to a fundamentally changed understanding of death and birth, of historic and social experience.

In the newborn infant, the parents encounter a primeval individual being with unknown dispositions that it is so far unable to express in its new physical incarnation. Education becomes an aid to incarnation, to assist and harmonize the growth of the spiritual being into itsphysical form determined by genetic and moral factors and defined by karma even before the act of birth itself.

In Steiner's scheme of things, the drama of crisis, transformation and rebirth is revealed in the changing manifestations of the child, following the cosmic rhythm of seven-year periods. At the end of the first seven years, the structure of the child's organism has been completed by the ethereal forces of growth from the tips of the toes to the new teeth.

These physical growth forces are now born, i.e. they are metamorphosed into forces of learning; the child develops its inner senses and is ready forschool.

In the second seven-year period, astral spiritual forces that are still hidden shape the world of drives,passions, and feelings. These astral forces are liberated at sexual maturity and transformed into abilities of conceptual thinking and human judgement. They help the hidden ego forces to attain intellectual and social maturity that is achieved with the birth of the individual personality at the end of the third period of seven years.

In this perspective, Steiner therefore understands development in the platonic sense as a strictly successive process of upward movement. First the outer senses are formed by active imitation, and then the inner senses are formed by imitative imagination.

Following this, the categories of reason are developed through personal thought, while the ideas of the universe are finally reflected in the individual personality.

An eternal spiritual ego moves down into a new body and shapes it—in a seven-year cycle—from the head via the heart to the hands. When the third seven-year period begins, this spiritual ego will have taken over the whole body down to its extremities. The spiritualization of the soul and conceptual world can now begin.

Like the premises themselves, the temporal dimension of the educational process is also structured rhythmically. The outlining frame is formed by the seven-year periods of development, or hebdomads that are marked by the birth of the new essential forces, e.g. when the adult teeth begin to grow and sexual maturity is reached.

As we have already seen, education during each of the seven-year periods is addressed to a different part of the personality of the pupil, moving as it were from the outside inwards. Each seven-year period is dominated by a different method of learning and teaching, from the external activity of imitation via the internal process of emulation to formal and abstract independent thinking.

From the seventh school year onwards, starting out from the world of solid matter, a gradual introduction is made to the abstract causal- analytical dominant knowledge of modern physics. Natural scientific training in the Rudolf Steiner school is thus all-round environmental education. It attempts to keep the bond between man and nature alive in pupils for as long as possible and to restore that bond in their later thought process through educational knowledge of nature.

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From: holderlin66
Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:29 pm
Subject: Magnificent Tableau and mental midgets

It is very hard, or very humbling to admit that what Education and the Intellect have brought forward so far is far more flawed than that which Steiner has built his house upon.

Steiner did not build his house upon sand. We have looked into the Tabula Rasa, the scroll, the etheric body and now we need a sample of "The Life Tableau".

These experiences are all thrust away from Intellectually clever who arm themselves with left handed and right handed and utter nonsense, like so many chickens pecking in the yard. My own Intellect refuses and stubbornly denies facts. Our failures in thinking are our own errors.

Naturally as spoiled children of the Mind or Rational Soul, we crave attention and subjective affirmation that we haven't bought the farm and built our flawed thinking on a mere foundation of Sand. But the facts are we have built our foundations on the flawed constructs of science that are incomplete and fail to meet with reality. You can have whole clubs, congregations of critics drawn together out of the Church of the Failed Intellect and all of them remain snivelling cowards. They are cowards because they choose to avoid confronting their own limitations in thinking and education.

The Intellect loves to play devils advocate and place itself as a critic, as the intellect is prone to do, with a list of complaints against Waldorf Education. The complaints are sometimes justified in that Teachers and general social conditions of individuals and a lack of sound education has all of us starting from a flawed relation to facts. Facts stand right before us and the mules of the Intellect and the Churchs of the Failed Intellectual Soul point their fingers, laugh and mock the mountain of Facts in front of them.

Now the facts are that each human being has a physical, etheric, astral and I AM structure. The facts are that in enhancement and metamorphosis the faculty of Toes to Teeth, the child's Etheric/physical body, frees up forces for the child to begin to approach the abstract learning of school.

The arguments against Waldorf or Spiritual Science or Steiner attack the wrong areas of reality. The reality is that parents and teachers are not familiar with facts. They have never heard of such facts. While every hospital will tell you that Near Death Experiences tell the same tale over and over again to the Doctors and Nurses. That each person immediately becomes loosened from the physical bodies and steps outside the genetic determinism projected in the physical body. This genetic determinism is suddenly loosened, sometimes very dramatically and the Review of OUR LIfe is suddenly a visual and emotional calming, and obviously stunningly intimate inner experience that verges on the Religious.

Now the WC and the rest of the world have the capacity of Intellect and choose, many times, to throw the baby out with the bath water. The model that Steiner created for Education is not some arbitrary indoctrination program. It is a cooperation with the Living Laws of the Soul/Spirit and Material World. The laws of the Science of the living human being, that the pride and infection of the intellect prefers not to deal with.

Are the teachers flawed? Yes. Are the intellects, loaded with the pride of their churches, their much prized educational degrees flawed? Yes. Do they have a grasp of the spectrum and dimension of thought out, well studied, deeply researched reality that Steiner attempted in throwing together a Waldorf School from a cigarette factory? No.

Critics run like scared rabbits and hide behind nonsense piled upon nonsense and build huge ant hills out of the mighty rain storm of substance that Steiner delivers. Ants at least take the effort to dry out the flood and rebuild their washed out structures.

Sand is Sand and the opinions built on intellectual Sand and the edifice of Science has become a much prided cancer. But at least, you might say, it is my cancer and I am proud of it. I'll just pass this cancerous thinking onto my kids.

Most infantile critic attacks are based on false assumptions and encounters with their own prejudical pet beliefs. Projecting their pet beliefs or materialism onto their children, however diluted and modified remains stuck on the side of thinking that cannot get through their own limitations.

There are definite Intellectual Soul and Sentient Soul problems that come with teachers, parents and all of us. They are nothing to do with the objective integration of gene theory, heredity and the inception of the soul and spirit that meets with the gene stream that Steiner presents. These are just unwanted facts.

The trumphed up accusations against a living Science of the Human Being and running Steiner down as DD or PS might tend to do, really reveals an infantile failure to understand reality. Socrates was correct and Steiner has produced a technically correct understanding of the Etheric body and the Life Tableau. Further he unfolded an objective curriculum based on deeply profound facts of the etheric body.

Now for those who have trouble understanding the difference between failed science and Intellectual Soul theories, emotional and sentimental theories that we cling to regarding the Living Science of the Human Being and that which Science stops short of revealing, I will give some examples.

No matter how many examples are given, critics still rest on the flawed content of their own thinking. You can rant and rave about Racism all you want. You can call the legitamte Science of Spiritual Science a Cult all you want. Why do objective thinking individuals need to paddle around in the pathetic examples of polluted materialistic thinking?

You either have to admit you know nothing of reality, religion or the secrets of Life or you must kick and scream at everyone who puts your nose in your own dung. You can have your Intellectual tantrums and think you are Seeing Reality all you want. All you are seeing is the intellectually flawed content of our own soul life.

http://www.doyletics.com/arj/tposervw.htm

"Think of a papaya tree, but any tropical plant or tree will suffice for this metaphor. After a freeze, the tree becomes a corpse, its trunk dissolves, it separates into water and a papery tube as the etheric body that kept it alive leaves it. The collapsed tube lays on the ground, a corpse, with no life left in it. If we have removed the papaya fruit before the freeze, the fruit of the tree can live to create a new papaya tree in the next season. This is something we perceive, not something that we would say that we believe, even though it has the air of the incredible about it if we think deeply on the subject of how a pea-sized black seed might grow into an eighteen foot papaya tree in a mere nine months.

"When a human dies, the body becomes a corpse when the etheric, astral, and Ego bodies leave it. [During sleep, only the Ego and astral bodies leave and the etheric and physical bodies remain behind.] Like the papaya tree, there is only dead tissue and body remnants left behind; in other words, the physical bodies of the dead papaya tree and of the dead human both dissolve into the physical body of Earth.

What is the human equivalent of the fruit of the papaya, however? Even though humans are more evolved than papaya trees, there is a human equivalent of the fruit of the papaya tree. We said the etheric body of the dead papaya tree is gone, but when we inspect the fruit that we removed earlier, we find that there is incipient life - an etheric body - inside of the fruit, a fact that we can easily confirm by planting its seeds in the Earth and watching it grow. The papaya is simpler than the human - it has only etheric and physical bodies. The plant adds an etheric body to the purely physical body of the mineral. The animal adds an astral body. The human adds an "I" or Ego body to its astral, etheric and physical bodies. This represents the condition of minerals, plants, animals, and humans during the current Earth epoch of evolution.

"With this prologue, dear Reader, you are ready to read the following passage and perceive the spiritual realities that infuse your life. Steiner is describing what happens when one dies. First the etheric, astral, and Ego bodies leave the physical body with the etheric and Ego bodies nestled inside of the astral body. Directly one experiences a memory tableau of one's life for the longest time that one stayed awake during one's life, about two days for the average person. In this tableau one sees as in a diorama the events of one's life spread out before one's eyes all of a piece, one's life from beginning to end spread out before one. Time becomes space in the tableau.

[page 2] Then the etheric body leaves the astral body, in which the ego is living. All three had been connected from the time they left the physical corpse, but now the etheric body separates itself from the other two and becomes an etheric corpse. However, today's human beings do not lose their etheric body completely but take an extract or excerpt along with them for all the times to follow. So in this sense the etheric corpse is cast off, but the fruit of the last life is carried along by the astral body and by the ego. If we want to be quite precise, we will have to say that something is taken along from the physical body as well: a kind of spiritual abstract of this body - the tincture medieval mystics spoke about. However, this abstract of the physical being is the same in all lives; it merely represents the fact that the ego had been embodied. On the other hand, the essence of the etheric body is different in all lives, depending on what one has experienced in a life and on the degree of one's progress in it.

"If one produces fruit in one's life, then the spiritual economy conserves that fruit for a later life, similar to the papaya with its seeds. As the owner of a papaya tree that is very fruitful, a tree that makes plump and delicious fruit, one would be more likely to plant the seeds of that papaya than the seeds of papaya trees that made small, hard, or inedible fruit. This point is best kept in mind as one reads later about the etheric and astral bodies of spiritually advanced human beings that are preserved by the spiritual world for later use in future incarnations. In this thought lies the essence of what Steiner refers to as spiritual economy"

http://www.vermontel.com/~vtsophia/fifthgos.htm

After death, the etheric body expands and slowly disperses into the etheric sphere over a period of about three days. During this time, like the familiar tales of the drowning man, the entire life-tableau of the deceased person passes before the soul's eye, in a series of pictures in reverse order. A holographic kernel of this life tableau, as eternal moral memory, remains over to accompany the soul into kama-loka or purgatory.

In STUDIES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT Valentin Tomberg explains the source of the distinct life of Christ with an explanation never touched upon by Steiner. He says that Jesus at His death renounced the vision of His life tableau. "He gave it up to humanity" and it later became the content of what the apostles saw in vision during the Pentecost event. This description gives many very important insights.

First, it explains the "source" of the "Life of Christ" that the apostles, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, used to write down their gospel stories. A very strong argument has always been made by critics of the New Testament that how could the apostles write in the gospels about the passion and crucifixion of Christ if they (except John) were admittedly, not present to watch these events? This is a very poignant criticism.

However, at the Pentecost event, when the Holy Spirit descended, the flame, first raised the consciousness of the apostles from a human/angelic level to that of an arch-angelic level. Second, by the light of the flame of the Holy Spirit, the apostles saw in Imaginative vision, the entire life of Christ as reflected in His etheric life tableau, that did not disperse back into the etheric sphere at His crucifixion, but was preserved and "given back to humanity."

For the ordinary man, our etheric body after death, disperses back into the general etheric sphere and our life tableau becomes part of the lower, historical Chronicle. But for the Christ, His etheric life tableau did not disperse back into the etheric sphere and become part of the lower Chronicle . His life tableau was preserved intact and given back to humanity as a separate higher Chronicle, known as the 5th Gospel. The effect of this occult fact serves three important purposes."

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