Messiah 1

Messiah 2

 

From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:57 am
Subject: Messiah

Hi Everyone,

My Rabbi believes I am about to become a Jew. At the very least he says I am a Noahite: one who has no religion but follows seven basic laws. It seems one of the prerequists for becoming a Jew is that you renounce Jesus. Looks like that one is out the window:) Funny how even unto today the point is that one must renounce Jesus.

I mention that for just a second to speak what is coming about in my mind regarding the Jews and Jesus. It seems to me with the following article printed in the LA Times last week the Hassidic Jews are awaiting the Messiah. And a very specific one at that. His name is Rabbi Schneerson. Now this Rabbi has been dead for about 10 years now and they are expecting him back. This has led to a great conversation about how this could happen and how it seems that not all of the Jews are in line with this thought. And even further in that most likely he will be crucified, not in the same manner as Jesus was said to have been but in that he will not be accepted by all.

Rabbi states that each generation has its own Messiah. That the Messhia is not a one time only deal. And that most likely the Jews send him packing because they specifically are not ready for the Messhiah. This led me to asking him if it is possible that Jesus can be reconciled with having been the Messhiah for his generation. He says no because the Rabbis didn't except him back then. None of them. Well, I have a funny feeling that this is a misunderstanding or at the very least an overstatement of that particular moment back in time.

I find it very interesting that we as Christians do not have a complete overview of that which Judaism teaches. We have our Christianized version but without the links to the Old Testament and the Torah I feel that we will forever be missing the boat with one another. We must go back to the source in order to bridge the gap that exists. Within this gap there is a way for Jesus to have been for his generation what is now being claimed for Rabbi Schneerson.

I realize that we go further in that we hold that Christ descending was a one time only event. However the way in which we hold the Jews to be of such a different mindset is not the bottom line truth. I feel that we have a connection being shown through this Rabbi Schneerson and it could be the very thing that kindles the flame towards reunification for the people of the book, as the Prophet Muhammed likes to call us.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=16&u=/latimests/judaismsthrivingconcern

If you click on the link and copy it you can then paste it into your address line and it will go directly there. A new trick I have found:)

All my best,
d

p.s. there is also a new article that I wish to share and it is a little controversial for Jews and Christians alike. But it does seem to link the thought of things being the way they were supposed to be even unto the death but from a slightly different point of view that is askewed but I can sense someone trying to poke a hole into a spiritual thought.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Messiah

Hi, Dottie,

My Rabbi believes I am about to become a Jew. At the very least he says I am a Noahite: one who has no religion but follows seven basic laws. It seems one of the prerequists for becoming a Jew is that you renounce Jesus. Looks like that one is out the window:) Funny how even unto today the point is that one must renounce Jesus.

Doesn't sound kosher to me.

I mention that for just a second to speak what is coming about in my mind regarding the Jews and Jesus. It seems to me with the following article printed in the LA Times last week the Hassidic Jews are awaiting the Messiah. And a very specific one at that. His name is Rabbi Schneerson. Now this Rabbi has been dead for about 10 years now and they are expecting him back. This has led to a great conversation about how this could happen and how it seems that not all of the Jews are in line with this thought. And even further in that most likely he will be crucified, not in the same manner as Jesus was said to have been but in that he will not be accepted by all.

Rabbi Schneerson is a Brooklyn boy. I remember him. It is written that he will reincarnate in L.A. when the Dodgers return to Brooklyn.

Rabbi states that each generation has its own Messiah. That the Messhia is not a one time only deal. And that most likely the Jews send him packing because they specifically are not ready for the Messhiah. This led me to asking him if it is possible that Jesus can be reconciled with having been the Messhiah for his generation. He says no because the Rabbis didn't except him back then. None of them. Well, I have a funny feeling that this is a misunderstanding or at the very least an overstatement of that particular moment back in time.

I find it very interesting that we as Christians do not have a complete overview of that which Judaism teaches. We have our Christianized version but without the links to the Old Testament and the Torah I feel that we will forever be missing the boat with one another. We must go back to the source in order to bridge the gap that exists. Within this gap there is a way for Jesus to have been for his generation what is now being claimed for Rabbi Schneerson.

There is a huge volume of scholarship about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, including Messianic expectations. It's there, one only has to seek.

Frank

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:18 am
Subject: Re: Messiah

Frank:

There is a huge volume of scholarship about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, including Messianic expectations. It's there, one only has to seek.

Hey Frank,

I realize this however the everyday people attending our Christian churches do not. Nor do the Jews realize, at this point in time, the connectivety as to why the Christians hold Jesus as the Messiah. So, there has to be a way not only to bridge the bad feelings between the two groups on a topical level there must be one on the deep knowledge 'word' level. For example: My Rabbi doesn't know who Lucifer is under that name? Why is this? He asks if maybe the name is Achamoth (sp:( or maybe if he is the serpent. The point being that we have these similar stories but no one except a few are interesting in looking into the deeper connection that exists. We only see that we are separated by the belief in Jesus the Christ.

In the way the world is today and in a massave way it is difficult for them to do this deep inner search that corresponds to both Books. The idea that each generation has its own Messiah is astounding to me. I mean I get it but the idea of having a living Messiah for each generation is unbelievable.

When I brought it up to my Rabbi he said that 'well there are two Jesus' anyway. One was born 100 to 150 years before the time in the New Testament. Pretty interesting when we think of Jesua Ben Pandira who supposedly lived a short while before Jesus of Nazareth.

It seems to me the biggest sticking point for the Jews is that God incarnated in the Flesh. THE God, end all be all God incarnated in the flesh. They do not believe this is a possibility. And personally I do not think it can be said that the 'end all be all God' did incarnate. We are talking about the highest aspect not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because man can not know this highest of high aspect. I am sorry I forget the name of this highest of high understanding.

So, to wrap this up I have to say the Jews have many misconceptions of what Christians hold to be true. Well, they seem to understand what the fundamentalist Christians tend to believe but not those who search for the inner tradition of Christianity. And I am wondering if maybe this inner tradition can be called Gnosis? Is that possible? Or is there another name for the inner tradition other than using the word 'esoteric' before the word Christianity.

Lots of questions rolling around,

Dottie

p.s. I have a Jewish summer camp at my clubhouse for the next two weeks. I am serranaded by singing every morning while sitting in my office. I was a bit surprised, don't know why, that it is an all boy summer camp. But the good part is I have my Rabbi every morning answering my questions.

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:35 pm
Subject: Messiah

dottie zold wrote:

THE God, end all be all God incarnated in the flesh. They do not believe this is a possibility. And personally I do not think it can be said that the 'end all be all God' did incarnate. We are talking about the highest aspect not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because man can not know this highest of high aspect.

Bradford comments;

Here is a nice little egregorial beastie that crops up again and again in every single conversation we have with anyone. I mean it crops up in all people not just this particular phrasing, but millions upon millions use this fall back, "ad man can not know" as an excuse. We are in the game we are players in this world of Beings and we have been given the tools, updates and upgrades to begin our approach to these mysteries.

Humanity is a model of one stage below the Angel. We know there is a path towards Angelic development along a moral curve, that is not based on literal Biblical dogmatism, but rather on dynamic I AM moral development. Judaism, Islam and Fundamental Christiianity are loaded with egregorial denials of the soul's participation in the great blueprints of creation. For why would Steiner make such an effort to impose the wisdom needed on a world so unwilling to find their way out of the conundrum?

So the Model of the Jesus Form and psychic Being that housed the Christ was prepared, yet still we have the tools needed to approach the tasks and level of understanding an Elohim. An Elohim who stood above where we stand now, entered and redesigned the paradigms all the way down to Garden of Eden and Atlantean gene structures. In other words we can and should be able to envision a Being Grander and resembles the Future a picture of human development. Why? Because we understand the basis of human development in relation to mineral, plant, animal, human, Angel and on upwards as part of the family of Beings which we are part of and have always been part of.

The details of working out Sentient soul perception and development, Intellectual Soul perception and development and Consciousness Soul perception and development are at hand for objective observation. If what Dottie indicated were true, than Steiner failed to present a case for manhood evolving into the family of Godhood.

Frankly I don't think Steiner failed to present his case for the divinity of humanity and the ascent of Godhood along clear psychological and soul scientific foundations. The denial that this is something we can't imagine is really an egregorial laziness in our thinking. It is a failure of the habits of soul and thought... It whisks away the research of Dr. Steiner in one fell swoop and places anyone who attempts to think it through, in film, book or commentary as wasting their time.

Now it is upon such frustrating phrasing and thinking that we enable our own denial. Once again, there is noone who has taken up the tasks of Spiritual Science who has not met with this very excuse at every turn. But IMO we cannot concede such excuses as anything but pockets of failure in the soul and sometimes even lack of desire to reconstuct a new path of thinking.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:49 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Messiah

Hi, Dottie,

Frank:

There is a huge volume of scholarship about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, including Messianic expectations. It's there, one only has to seek.

Hey Frank,

I realize this however the everyday people attending our Christian churches do not. Nor do the Jews realize, at this point in time, the connectivety as to why the Christians hold Jesus as the Messiah. So, there has to be a way not only to bridge the bad feelings between the two groups on a topical level there must be one on the deep knowledge 'word' level. For example: My Rabbi doesn't know who Lucifer is under that name? Why is this? He asks if maybe the name is Achamoth (sp:( or maybe if he is the serpent.

Acamoth (Hebrew) = Wisdom = Sophia (Greek)

see: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/lesson_34.htm

(snip)

It seems to me the biggest sticking point for the Jews is that God incarnated in the Flesh. THE God, end all be all God incarnated in the flesh. They do not believe this is a possibility. And personally I do not think it can be said that the 'end all be all God' did incarnate. We are talking about the highest aspect not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because man can not know this highest of high aspect. I am sorry I forget the name of this highest of high understanding.

Well, the Church and most Christians do maintain the God the Father incarnated in Jesus the Nazorean, which is an absurdity, considering that that selfsame Jesus continually refers to "my father".

So, to wrap this up I have to say the Jews have many misconceptions of what Christians hold to be true. Well, they seem to understand what the fundamentalist Christians tend to believe but not those who search for the inner tradition of Christianity. And I am wondering if maybe this inner tradition can be called Gnosis? Is that possible? Or is there another name for the inner tradition other than using the word 'esoteric' before the word Christianity.

Most of what is known about the Christian Gnostics is from their critics, as in the link above. Nevertheless a study of Gnosticism and Anthroposophy can go a long way to straightening the path. Certainly a non-dogmatic, open-minded dialogue between knowledgable Jews and Christians on the subject is long overdue.

p.s. I have a Jewish summer camp at my clubhouse for the next two weeks. I am serranaded by singing every morning while sitting in my office. I was a bit surprised, don't know why, that it is an all boy summer camp. But the good part is I have my Rabbi every morning answering my questions.

And who, pray, answers the rabbi's questions?

Shalom,
Frank

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Messiah

Dottie wrote:

We are talking about the highest aspect not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because man can not know this highest of high aspect.

Bradford:

Here is a nice little egregorial beastie that crops up

and...

Now it is upon such frustrating phrasing and thinking that we enable our own denial. Once again, there is noone who has taken up the tasks of Spiritual Science who has not met with this very excuse at every turn. But IMO we cannot concede such excuses as anything but pockets of failure in the soul and sometimes even lack of desire to reconstuct a new path of thinking.

Dear Bradford,

Meet the new dottie zold:) no in your face with pie, no not I :)

Anyhow,

Have you studied the Kabbalah, past reading and looking at the pretty words:)))) just kidding. Anyhow, Jesus said the Father and He were one. I understand what the Jews are speaking about when they say 'one can not know the highest of the high while still alive. And I believe that to be probable to this time. That does not mean we will not be on an ongoing journey to accomplish our goal and to pass the first and second threshold consciously, but this has nothing to do with 'knowing God in the Highest' and I mean one that is off the record, in my opinion.

In the Kabbalah there is a level, and I will check out the name tonight, in which the 'name' is not even really ever called upon as we are working towards the highest sphere in the Tree of Life which ends before the Highest. Well, I can't imagine I can speak any further on it although I understand it inside. I will pray to be able to say it in words. Whew. You know by the way, and I don't think I ever told this to the Ark, I came upon my journey for Magdalene from praying to know an answer that Catherine, Bruno and others were discussing regarding the 11th chapter of John. When I awoke and realized that through the evening I had come to the answer I was so excited. And when I shared it on the Ark I was blasted back into real life.

And, by the way, I don't really get nervous. I DID get nervous when I started to read the Doctor seven or so years ago as things just started to shake and show themselves clearly around me. But now, its not the words and thoughts that bother me rather it is the lowering of the veil that shakes me to the core. And I imagine the battles on line have strengthened me within. Isn't that wierd. Including the battle over at the critics when I was there.

One last rambling thought, sorry, did you ever think of, well two, but did you ever think of Michaels call to Lucifer 'Who is like unto Him'? And Lucifers call back is 'I AM'. Now, taking that a step further we, when acknowledging the various thoughts streaming through on our daily journeys, come to a point wherein we would ask 'who the hell is speaking to me' and today the answer came back 'I am' and I recongized that to be my self. So, in realizing our oneness when we finally do it becomes an 'I am that I am' thought. Kind of simplistic but anyhow it kind of works like this.

What do you make of this Magdalene is a limb of the rising Lazarus:)??

d

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Messiah

Frank:

Acamoth (Hebrew) = Wisdom = Sophia (Greek)

see: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/lesson_34.htm

Hey Frank,

Thanks for the link. I just peeked for a second but will have more time tonight. Maybe it isn't Acamoth. I can't imagine the Rabbi is saying that 'Sophia' Chocmah was the Serpent. Whew. Taht would be totally amazing.

Frank:

And who, pray, answers the rabbi's questions?

The Rabbi answers my little questions about his study of the Torah wherein I can match it with the Christian Bible. We haven't gotten to any innerworldy questions as I am looking for the link that has gone missing between the two religions.

When the Rabbi said that it seems I was becoming a Jew I stated rather quickly 'I am a Jew, and I am everything else'. He had a great smile and a shake of the finger at me. And I said it was not for him or any other Rabbi to say I am not Jewish that it is for God only. In this thought I am led to want a better understanding of the word Jew and its specific inner meaning. Because if one can become a Jew that is not, through a long and ardous path, that there must be another meaning to the word that is not spoken of.

Anyhow, happy day,
d

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: Messiah

dottie zold wrote:

Have you studied the Kabbalah, past reading and looking at the pretty words:)))) just kidding.

Dear Dottie;

Now I know somebody who does know the Kabbalah fairly well. He could be engaged in a discussion. He has participated in this list many times. I personally would love to get some of this Kabbalah structure sorted out..updated and put somewhere within grasp. I have encountered and have various mapped out constructs of the Kabbalah but there is certainly one person who I would like to hear from on this subject. That person is, our very own Grail Brother, himself, a strong Arthurian..

Brother Ron.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Click to subscribe to anthroposophy_tomorrow
 

June/July 2004

The Uncle Taz "Anthroposophy Tomorrow" Files

Anthroposophy & Anarchism

Anthroposophy & Scientology

Anthroposophical Morsels

Anthroposophy, Critics, and Controversy

Search this site powered by FreeFind