More Questions
Football
and Waldorf circus
Kicking a ball
From: winters_diana
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:36 pm
Subject: Kicking a ball
About kicking a ball, Daniel
asks:
What is the mechanism by which this ban
is communicated and enforced? Are there sanctions for breaking
it?
How do teachers enforce a ban on anything?
They tell the kids not to do it, and often try to get their parents
not to let them do it either.
Diana
...................................................................................................................................
From: at
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:12 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
I seem not to have been clear on this. How
does Waldorf keep schools from allowing kids to kick a ball?
What happens if one school decides to have a kickball game? Is
there some written policy that this is grounds for termination
of all involved? It the school decertified? Do local anthroposophists
grab their pitchforks and storm the school grounds? What if I
have seen kickball games at a German Waldorf school? Does that
make Mr. Staudenmaier a liar?
Daniel Hindes
----- Original Message -----
From: diana.winters
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 10:36 PM
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
About kicking a ball, Daniel
asks:
What is the mechanism by which this ban
is communicated and enforced? Are there sanctions for breaking
it?
How do teachers enforce a ban on anything?
They tell the kids not to do it, and often try to get their parents
not to let them do it either.
Diana
...................................................................................................................................
From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:56 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Daniel asked.
I seem not to have been clear on this.
How does Waldorf keep schools from allowing kids to kick a ball?
What happens if one school decides to have a kickball game? Is
there some written policy that this is grounds for termination
of all involved? It the school decertified? Do local anthroposophists
grab their pitchforks and storm the school grounds? What if I
have seen kickball games at a German Waldorf school? Does that
make Mr. Staudenmaier a liar?
I can only speak from experience. Firstly,
Steiner did prohibit soccer in the first Waldorf School in Germany.
Reasons: it's the only human activity that uses the head as an
instrument; constantly kicking around a head-shaped ball unconciously
incites to violence. (btw, I know a guy here in Argentina who
was blinded from heading a soccer ball, a freak accident, but
brain injuries can result.) When I lived in Germany the kids
played soccer in 2 W-schools, I don't know about others, nor
about the US. In Argentina, where soccer is a national illness,
there's no way to prohibit it in any school, W. or otherwise.
Frank
...................................................................................................................................
From: at
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Daniel asked.
I seem not to have been clear on this.
How does Waldorf keep schools from allowing kids to kick a ball?
What happens if one school decides to have a kickball game? Is
there some written policy that this is grounds for termination
of all involved? It the school decertified? Do local anthroposophists
grab their pitchforks and storm the school grounds? What if I
have seen kickball games at a German Waldorf school? Does that
make Mr. Staudenmaier a liar?
Frank:
I can only speak from experience. Firstly,
Steiner did prohibit soccer in the first Waldorf School in Germany.
Reasons: it's the only human activity that uses the head as an
instrument; constantly kicking around a head-shaped ball unconciously
incites to violence. (btw, I know a guy here in Argentina who
was blinded from heading a soccer ball, a freak accident, but
brain injuries can result.) When I lived in Germany the kids
played soccer in 2 W-schools, I don't know about others, nor
about the US. In Argentina, where soccer is a national illness,
there's no way to prohibit it in any school, W. or otherwise.
Daniel:
I've been looking for the source of this apocryphal
soccer ban by Steiner for years. Any idea where it is printed?
If his justification was that head damage might result, it is
rather precient. The bit about an unconscious encouragement to
violence is interesting, but I would like to hear his own words
on the subject.
Daniel Hindes
...................................................................................................................................
From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:44 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Daniel, you wrote:
I've been looking for the source of this
apocryphal soccer ban by Steiner for years. Any idea where it
is printed? If his justification was that head damage might result,
it is rather precient. The bit about an unconscious encouragement
to violence is interesting, but I would like to hear his own
words on the subject.
It's not apocraphal, I remember reading it
well, but don't remember were - probably in one of the talks
with teachers books. If I find out though, I'll let you know.
Btw., I don't think he said anything about brain damage, that
was me, but I did read it somewhere recently, along with the
news that Amereican football pro linemen are also subject to
brain damage.
Frank
...................................................................................................................................
From: Patrick
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:19 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Dear Daniel,
I don't have all of my "Waldorf books"
at home -- they are at my office -- but I do have one quote that
I can give you from a series of lectures given in England, titled
in English, "The Kingdom of Childhood." In a question
and answer period following the lecture, the following question
was asked: "How should instruction in gymnastics be carried
out, and should sports be taught in an English school, hockey
and cricket, for example, and if so in what way?" Steiner
answered: "it is emphatically not the aim of the Waldorf
school method to suppress these things. They have their place
simply because they play a great part in English life, and the
child should grow up into life. Only please do not fall prey
to the illusion that there is any other meaning in it than this,
namely, that we ought not to make the child a stranger to his
world. To believe that sport is a tremendous value in development
is an error. It is not a great value in development. It's only
value is that it is a fashion dear to the English people, and
we must not make the child a stranger to the world by excluding
him from all popular usages. You like sport in England, so the
child should be introduced to sport.... With regard to "how
it should really be taught", there is very little indeed
to be said. For in these things it is really more or less so
that someone does it first, and then the child imitates him.
And to devise special artificial methods here would be something
scarcely appropriate to the subject." In addition to the
concepts noted by Frank there is the idea that "the head
is not a limb". I remember from my reading that a sport
whose predominate activity is kicking a ball tends "to bind
the feeling to the will". In the time in a child's life
when she needs to fully develop her feeling, not being free to
use one's arms -- which are fully expressive of feeling -- runs
against the grain of development. I'll see if I can find the
quotes for you.
By the way I wonder why Diana did not respond
to my response to her statements regarding teaching writing and
reading in the first grade? Maybe she didn't read them. Thanks
again for your part in the discussion.
Patrick
...................................................................................................................................
From: at
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:23 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Thanks for the quote, Patrick. I'm quite familiar
with it.
To Frank:
Earlier I searched through "Faculty Conferences
with Rudolf Steiner" for the terms "Fußball"
and "Ball" with no results. I'll check the English
index tomorrow. I've been asking for years where this is printed,
and so far nobody (including a number of Waldorf sports teachers
who are themselves against Soccer) can tell me where it is printed.
Hence my calling it "apocryphal". Perhaps it is in
someone's memoirs.
Daniel Hindes
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:20 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Patrick:
I remember from my reading that a sport
whose predominate activity is kicking a ball tends "to bind
the feeling to the will". In the time in a child's life
when she needs to fully develop her feeling, not being free to
use one's arms -- which are fully expressive of feeling -- runs
against the grain of development. I'll see if I can find the
quotes for you.
Hi Patrick and All,
I have been thinking on this point these last
few days. Well, actually I had been thinking on them before as
I was a child who grew up to play every sport imaginable. I had
no art instruction other than a school art class in my early
years and I recall maybe two things I did that make me smile
till this day.
I was offered scholarships to various colleges
including George Washington University in Washington and UCLA/USC
(can't remember exactly which one) for soccer. I played on the
boys team in school and was highest scorer for most of my years.
Kind of a phenomina back then. But something keeps nagging at
me as I got older: I did not know how to express my self in the
world other than through sports. And I remember a few times being
so frustrated and embarrassed in school that I completely ignored
are till I was in my early thirties. And now my expression is
blossoming as it should with the message of Love that lives within
me.
I speak to my sisters about sports and art
for their children and how important it is to carefully consider
what helps the children to express their emotions and thoughts
inside. I mean teenagers go through such a hellacious time and
to not have an avenue to express it in a healthy manner is a
tragedy in my eyes.
So, I want to concur that I can exactly see
in my self and in others the point Patrick made above so eloquently.
And to thank him for giving me a moment to put it into words
through his thoughts.
Sincerely,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:48 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
----- Original Message -----
Daniel asked.
I seem not to have been clear on this.
How does Waldorf keep schools from allowing kids to kick a ball?
What happens if one school decides to have a kickball game? Is
there some written policy that this is grounds for termination
of all involved? It the school decertified? Do local anthroposophists
grab their pitchforks and storm the school grounds? What if I
have seen kickball games at a German Waldorf school? Does that
make Mr. Staudenmaier a liar?
Frank:
I can only speak from experience. Firstly,
Steiner did prohibit soccer in the first Waldorf School in Germany.
Reasons: it's the only human activity that uses the head as an
instrument; constantly kicking around a head-shaped ball unconciously
incites to violence. (btw, I know a guy here in Argentina who
was blinded from heading a soccer ball, a freak accident, but
brain injuries can result.) When I lived in Germany the kids
played soccer in 2 W-schools, I don't know about others, nor
about the US. In Argentina, where soccer is a national illness,
Illness soccer ????
AARGHH!
I pretend your APOLOGIES!!!!
I played soccer , as every good Italian boy,
20 years along and I'm also a goooodd , mild and kindly hearted
anthropop, as anyone can see, and my head is still PERFECTLY
ready for every spiritual enterprise!!!!!!
About soccer : RS was wrong!!!
Up with the soccer!!!
ROMAA!!!!! Cassano, Totti, Mancini !!!
A. (the most powerful left midfielder of Soccer's
history)
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997
Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:37 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Yes, and look what it did for Andrea Boccelli!
In making him blind it deprived Italy of a
great lawyer and gave the world a great tenor!
Go Karma!!
Christine
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997@cs.com
Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:47 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Repeating
myself -
Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Football
and Waldorf circus
Date: 2/9/2004 7:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: golden3000997
Hello Frank and Everyone!
OK - here's my two cent contribution to
the theme. The explanation that I heard at the Sacrmento Waldorf
School while interning is, as has been usual in my experience,
a more elaborate and complex one. And, as usual in Waldorf Education,
very little applies to "the child" en masse. There
is so much distinction between children every year, sometimes
every month!!
What I was given to understand, is that
it is the activity of Kicking that is undesirable in children
younger than 14 - until the releasing of the astral body, because
it concentrates too much life force energy from the etheric down
into the feet (the metabolic system) and, since the etheric forces
(freed at the change of teeth) are now being used in the rhythmic
system, with "heart-thinking" as we strive to nurture
it in Waldorf Education from First to Eighth grade, a lot of
concentration of energy in an activity such as soccer or other
kicking based sports "drags down" the emerging thought
energies of the child into the lower limbic system. Baseball
and basketball are preferable, because the energy stays more
in the middle zone of the body. The phenomenon that was pointed
out to me and that I constantly observe whenever I see pictures
of professional athletes (more so in American Football than European/
South American soccer) is to see the size of many of the players'
necks and shoulders. It's like something has "sunk down"
from their heads. I have seen the change in adolescent boys who
play football. It can be quite startling.
And, as happens so often with "Waldorf
theory" things get snatched out of context and applied willy-nilly
to all ages and circumstances and this makes it usually just
sound nuts. As I understand it, it is fine for the high school,
and probably not that harmful for 7th & 8th graders in today's
world to play either of these sports. But there are probably
a number of good reasons to hold off with younger children. There
is so much in today's world that seeks to "drag them down"
into their lower limbic anyway, that it is harder and harder
to help them keep heads raised toward
the stars. Also, the whole question of "organized sports"
as they exist in the United States has its share of "horror
stories" of over zealous parents and all kinds of bad adult
examples.
Personally, I wouldn't seek to prevent
children playing soccer on their own volition on the playground
at recess. And I wouldn't advise a parent whose child had a real
emotional attachment to a sport like soccer because of role models
he or she admired either in professional sports or in his or
her family, to prohibit their joining a team. But I would recommend
sometimes a "balancing" act - such as making sure that
the child also was encouraged to study a musical instrument or
join a chorus or some other such "heart" activity that
he or she enjoyed. Also, for some individual children, especially
those little "airy-fairy" ones, a little soccer might
be a very good thing, as long as it wasn't in a setting that
was too harshly competetive. Might be really good for some of
the phlegmatics, too, but again, one would have to watch out
that the atmosphere was positive and supportive, not harsh and
critical. Of course, plenty of cholerics would probably love
soccer, etc. If they were really set on it, as I said I would
say it's fine, as long as lots of other areas of their lives
were being attended to (especially reading and "homework").
The melancholics who like sport are probably
mostly melancholic - choleric, so the same idea would apply as
to the cholerics proper. "Super-melancholics" probably
just watch from the sidelines and fantasize about playing. (Please
take these all as generalizations).
A little bit of lots of sports can and
should be introduced to the children over the eight year class,
at whatever time feels right to the teacher with his or her own
set of kids and the curriculum. Sports, like all other aspects
of the curriculum have wonderful tie-ins to the history of mankind
and to the development of mankind as a whole. It is just a matter
of not getting "stuck" in time
or bringing things in too early or avoiding things that the children
are growing into.
As far as early childhood education is
concerned, I have watched children play and kick on the playground
(I always had balls available) and I don't remember ever saying
"don't do that." But I do think I would have and probably
did get out there and encourage some throwing games. Actually,
the throwing/catching ball games are even more challenging to
younger children and they love it when you set up "baskets"
or other "targets" or get some together to try to "keep
it up in the air". I have also observed that the children
who naturally gravitated toward kicking tended to be a bit more
aggressive and less willing to play more
cooperative games. This is not meant to be a judgment, just a
suggestion that teachers and parents really try to observe their
children on the playground or in the yard
with friends and try to be objective and say, "What do
I really see in front of me? What is my child
expressing here? What is my child receiving from this activity?
Is is mostly beneficial for his or her particular personality?
Or do I see a trend that may need something to balance it over
time?"
Also, for young children (before 7 definitely)
sports should only be games and the emphasis should be on everyone
playing together, not winners and losers.
I think the best of modern educational
psychology would back me up on that and I am willing to do some
reseach if anyone feels that this is an unfounded statement.
Even the early "second seven" finds children still
awfully fragile emotionally and competitive sport can be too
much for most of them. Observation and knowing the individual
child is always the key as well as good DISCERNMENT!!!
I lost my love of football (American) when
the 49ers lost the third Superbowl back in the ? late seventies???
O MY GOD - how OLD am I??? There will never be another Montana/
Rice/ Craig/ Taylor combo - never!! : (
How about CRICKET?? Anyone else on this
planet watch LAGAAN????
Love,
Christine
...................................................................................................................................
From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:25 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Hey, Andrea, I suspect that Peter S. has a
different opinion about your head. You didn't mention Maradona,
not Italian, but has some Italian offspring, it is more than
rumored. One of the greatest Argentine heroes of all time, despite
being a brainless buffoon. When I was a kid in Brooklyn, soccer
was considered a game for maricones. Not that I have anything
against them. In fact, some of my best friends are maricones,
but........
Francesco
P.S. I'm still waiting for the Italians to
discover baseball, a noble, spiritual game: http://southerncrossreview.org/12/diamond.htm
Illness soccer ????
AARGHH!
I pretend your APOLOGIES!!!!
I played soccer , as every good Italian
boy, 20 years along and I'm also a goooodd , mild and kindly
hearted anthropop, as anyone can see, and my head is still PERFECTLY
ready for every spiritual enterprise!!!!!!
About soccer : RS was wrong!!!
Up with the soccer!!!
ROMAA!!!!! Cassano, Totti, Mancini !!!
A. (the most powerful left midfielder of
Soccer's history)
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:57 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
----- Original Message -----
You didn't mention Maradona, not Italian,
but has some Italian offspring, it is more than rumored. One
of the greatest Argentine heroes of all time, despite being a
brainless buffoon. When I was a kid in Brooklyn, soccer was considered
a game for maricones. Not that I have anything against them.
In fact, some of my best friends are maricones, but........
Francesco
P.S. I'm still waiting for the Italians
to discover baseball, a noble, spiritual game:
Quote From R.Steiner:
(Modern sports and their link with Spiritual Evolution.34 lectures
held in Pescorocchiano Summer 1909 GA 374):
"It's impossible to find
in the whole of Mankind's Evolution something bothering like
a Baseball match"
A.
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:58 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Frank:
You didn't mention Maradona, not Italian,
but has some Italian offspring, it is more than rumored.
Hey Guys,
If he was an offspring of an Italian it must
have been from Naples. I was in Italy during the time Maradona
was playing for Naples and they had a song for him we used to
sing at the beach or just riding the vespas down the street.
It was so beautiful to be around this kind of emotional exhuberance
towards their hero.
So, I am sure his parents must have been from
there:)
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: Patrick
Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Dear Daniel et al,
It appears from my search that Frank is remembering
a quote from Rudolf Kicshnick's "Games, Gymnastics, Sport
in Child Development". The pertinent matter is under the
heading The Skull Game. In performing a google search for the
author I found the following link http://www.effenberg.de/waldorf_fussball.htm
it is quite humorous and revealing though quite possibly incomplete
and its understanding. It does say that Steiner spoke about soccer
in G. A. 350, on May 30th and June 6th in Dornach. I have an
e-mail into Jaimen McMillen at Spacial [sic] Dynamics for more
information. If anybody wants, I can scan the Kischnik chapter
and attach it. I suspect that the other concepts floating around
have come from other students of Franz Von Bothmer or perhaps
from Bothmer himself. Maybe anthroposophists have done some thinking
on their own...?
Patrick
----- Original Message -----
From: at
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Kicking a ball
Thanks for the quote, Patrick. I'm quite
familiar with it.
To Frank:
Earlier I searched through "Faculty
Conferences with Rudolf Steiner" for the terms "Fußball"
and "Ball" with no results. I'll check the English
index tomorrow. I've been asking for years where this is printed,
and so far nobody (including a number of Waldorf sports teachers
who are themselves against Soccer) can tell me where it is printed.
Hence my calling it "apocryphal". Perhaps it is in
someone's memoirs.
Daniel Hindes
...................................................................................................................................
From: franksmith
Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:10 am
Subject: Re: Kicking a ball
--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
Patrick wrote:
Dear Daniel et al,
It appears from my search that Frank is
remembering a quote from Rudolf Kicshnick's "Games, Gymnastics,
Sport in Child Development". The pertinent matter is under
the heading The Skull Game. In performing a google search for
the author I found the following link http://www.effenberg.de/waldorf_fussball.htm
it is quite humorous and revealing though quite possibly incomplete
and its understanding. It does say that Steiner spoke about soccer
in G. A. 350, on May 30th and June 6th in Dornach. I have an
e-mail into Jaimen McMillen at Spacial [sic] Dynamics for more
information. If anybody wants, I can scan the Kischnik chapter
and attach it. I suspect that the other concepts floating around
have come from other students of Franz Von Bothmer or perhaps
from Bothmer himself. Maybe anthroposophists have done some thinking
on their own...?
Ok, play soccer if you want - no skin off
my head. At least the guy likes baseball, which indicates that
he is progessing spiritually.
Frank
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