sex and the asuras

 

From: walkinsnotwelcome
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:55 am
Subject: Re: sex and the asuras

"Every killing of a being possessing an astral body evokes an intensification of the most brutal egoism." I wonder if this applies to killing by proxy - killing them to eat them.

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:16 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: sex and the asuras

At 17:55 28.03.2004, "walkinsnotwelcome" wrote:

"Every killing of a being possessing an astral body evokes an intensification of the most brutal egoism." I wonder if this applies to killing by proxy - killing them to eat them.

This particular description obviously refers to killing done for personal pleasure and Black Magic, accompanied by thought exercises and so on. I don't think Steiner had in mind hunting for food or self-defence when he said this. But he did say interesting things about the benefit of vegetarianism, and about how meat-eating binds us to the earth sphere and so on. And whenever any killing is done, it obviously strengthens egoism to a certain degree; hunting and self-defence are both related to the self-preservation instinct at the expense of a life; taking care of "Number One."

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: eyecueco
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:01 am
Subject: Re: sex and the asuras

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume wrote:

I don't think Steiner had in mind hunting for food or self-defence when he said this. But he did say interesting things about the benefit of vegetarianism,

And then went out after those lectures and ordered sausages for his evening meal.

Get a grip.

Paulina

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:10 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: sex and the asuras

I wrote:

I don't think Steiner had in mind hunting for food or self-defence when he said this. But he did say interesting things about the benefit of vegetarianism,

Paulina wrote:

And then went out after those lectures and ordered sausages for his evening meal.

What is your reference here?

Get a grip.

You mean I shouldn't mention what Steiner said about these topics?

Tarjei

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:32 am
Subject: Re: sex and the asuras

Hey walkinsnotwelcome, what's your point?

Dottie

"Every killing of a being possessing an astral body evokes an intensification of the most brutal egoism." I wonder if this applies to killing by proxy - killing them to eat them.

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:37 am
Subject: Re: sex and the asuras

Tarjei:

You mean I shouldn't mention what Steiner said about these topics?

We got gremlins in there thar hills and they aint got no pretty sisters if ya get my driftin.

d

what's in a name anyhow?

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:01 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: sex and the asuras

At 21:37 28.03.2004, Dottie wrote:

We got gremlins in there thar hills and they aint got no pretty sisters if ya get my driftin.

That's part of the reason why I would like to point out that I do not perceive any hypocrisy in Rudolf Steiner. What nutrition is concerned, he did not tell people what to eat or not to eat, to drink or not to drink and so on; he made it clear that this was the free choice for each individual. (When some anthroposophists try to dictate each other's lifestyles, it's totally out of synch with Steiner's attitude.) He simply described how foodstuffs and stimulants affected the physical and spiritual organism. I know his favorite at one point was black coffee with a glass of cognac and Swiss chocholate, but I had no idea he preferred sausages for supper. That's why I asked for a reference.

There are other issues I would like to raise in this context if I get around to it, such as why he didn't raise his voice against people joining the army and so on, although he did talk of the war as senseless madness. And why didn't he speak up against the death penalty? Imagine what killing convict after convict is doing to the soul of an executioner! (I'll get back to these things if I find the time.)

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: danifyou
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:57 pm
Subject: Rép. : Re: sex and the asuras

Hey Dottie,

You forgot to ask the 5 cents consultation fee... ;)

x

----Message original -----
De : dottie zold

Hey walkinsnotwelcome, what's your point?

Dottie

"Every killing of a being possessing an astral body evokes an intensification of the most brutal egoism." I wonder if this applies to killing by proxy - killing them to eat them.

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:22 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: sex and the asuras

I was told a long time ago that RS had Anthroposophical spiritual messages inserted as cards into cigarette packages that were being shipped to soldiers in

WWI.

I think he did not go in for condemning people's karmic choices, only offering help with the consequences.

Christine

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: sex and the asuras

PS - I think in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, for example, in the beheading of Anne Boleyn, etc., the Executioner steps forward and begs forgiveness from the condemned. I saw it in a movie, anyway. Maybe there is a karmic difference between the "job" of executioner when seen through medieval or maybe even modern eyes, and the killing of a "murderer". Certainly there has always been a perceived difference (Bibilical and otherwise) between the killing of a soldier, or warrior and a murderer. Our more refined modern sensibilities lead us to question this, but it was not always so.

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: sex and the asuras

PPS - I also "heard it long ago" from a Eurythmist, I think, that Steiner took a Eurythmy troupe along on his "lecture tours" whenever possible. On one such tour, the Troupe arrived at the restaurant ahead of Dr. Steiner after the lecture. They had just finished ordering a round of salads, when RS arrived and ordered a big juicy T-Bone steak. Can anybody here figure out the "message"???

Also - anthropop doctors have been known to recommend more meat-eating for Eurythmists who can get so "starry" that their feet hardly touch the ground, which can lead to accidents and things.

It's all a question of BALANCE!!!! Duh...

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:05 am
Subject: Eurythmists with starry feet (was: sex and the asuras)

At 06:29 29.03.2004, Christine wrote:

Also - anthropop doctors have been known to recommend more meat-eating for Eurythmists who can get so "starry" that their feet hardly touch the ground, which can lead to accidents and things.

Couldn't you have waited with this post until Thursday? (Check your calendar.)

Tarjei

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From: danifyou
Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:15 am
Subject: Rép. : Eurythmists with starry feet (was: sex and the asuras)

----Message original -----
De : Tarjei Straume


At 06:29 29.03.2004, Christine wrote:

Also - anthropop doctors have been known to recommend more meat-eating for Eurythmists who can get so "starry" that their feet hardly touch the ground, which can lead to accidents and things.

Reminds of the the Why of the Essene Diet In Relation to the waiting for the Messiah ahead... Speak of the Thawing of the Brain and the Sun of the Desert... Lean towards a very Fine Constitution of the Head!

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From: golden3000997
Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:59 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Eurythmists with starry feet

No, I'm serious and I could see it for myself when I lived in Spring Valley. Some people need more meat to "ground" them. Some are already too "grounded" and can use a veggie break now and then.

Of course, both meat and vegetables were a bit healthier back at the beginning of the 20th century both in how they were grown and fed and processed. We are dealing with chemicals, hormones, steriods, antibiotics and inhumane animal "raising" practices that were not factored into Steiner's indications on the subject.

Also, I personally factor in the Biblical perspective that it is not the food which goes into our mouths that makes us unclean, but the words that come out of them. Therefore, to me, meat prepared with love and eaten in peace and gratitude is preferable to veggies cooked with irritation and eaten in "fear" of ill health, etc. Also, I think Steiner was putting across a message to the Eurythmists not to be eating veggies because they were "pure" and holier than thou. Self-righteousness causes more illness than meat and potatoes, in my opinion.

Christine

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:08 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Eurythmists with starry feet

At 14:59 29.03.2004, Christine wrote:

Also, I personally factor in the Biblical perspective that it is not the food which goes into our mouths that makes us unclean, but the words that come out of them.

That's about washing hands before you eat. If your immune system is up to it, you can swallow a few million bacteria as long as you don't bark four-etter words between bites :)

Therefore, to me, meat prepared with love and eaten in peace and gratitude is preferable to veggies cooked with irritation and eaten in "fear" of ill health, etc.

Vegetarian food prepared with love and eaten in peace and gratitude is better than carcasses with the same amount of love and peace. Besides, I have a problem with the idea of slaughtering animals with love in your heart. As a kid, I witnessed the slaughtering of sceaming pigs, and also the slaughtering of a six days' old calf, and it was anything but lovely and peaceful.

Also, I think Steiner was putting across a message to the Eurythmists not to be eating veggies because they were "pure" and holier than thou. Self-righteousness causes more illness than meat and potatoes, in my opinion.

Vegetarianism and empathy for animals are not self-righteous preferences. You don't have to read Steiner about this; try Paul McCartney for instance. In the future, people who follow the Michaelic path will not only learn to refrain from retaliation and resistance against evil, but sensitivity to and empathy with living creatures will increase considerably, and eventually, man will get his nutrition from the mineral kingdom only. There is nothing "holier-than-thou" about this.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: danifyou
Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:50 am
Subject: Rép. : Re: Eurythmists with starry feet/ + kids with sandy ones

----Message original -----
De : Tarjei Straume

You don't have to read Steiner about this; try Paul McCartney for instance. In the future, people who follow the Michaelic path will not only learn to refrain from retaliation and resistance against evil, but sensitivity to and empathy with living creatures will increase considerably, and eventually, man will get his nutrition from the mineral kingdom only.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

It has been known that kids in their youth
Will go on try eating a handful of sand...

Ya know...
My Beginning is my End.... ;)

New mood on the list;
The Spring influence the sheaths!
Turning point this - have you ever noticed?
A certain Balance - Equilibrium gets broken.

Was it not Steiner that said Summer
Is the season 'par excellence' for Freedom.
As the Earth Sleep - we ourselves Men -
Have hence... an Astral body liberated!

Spring is a Beginning;
Ya know... My Beginning is my End
New Jerusalem - this must be then...
While Venus next is New Hyperion Planet!

Making Sense,
Dan

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:09 pm
Subject: The killing of John Lennon (was: sex and the asuras)

At 06:26 29.03.2004, Christine wrote:

PS - I think in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, for example, in the beheading of Anne Boleyn, etc., the Executioner steps forward and begs forgiveness from the condemned. I saw it in a movie, anyway. Maybe there is a karmic difference between the "job" of executioner when seen through medieval or maybe even modern eyes, and the killing of a "murderer". Certainly there has always been a perceived difference (Bibilical and otherwise) between the killing of a soldier, or warrior and a murderer. Our more refined modern sensibilities lead us to question this, but it was not always so.

The legitimacy of violence and of killing is increasingly becoming an anachronism, and when something that could be condoned in an older epoch is no longer suitable for the present and the future, its practice leads to increased corruption, destructiveness, and demoralization.

Consider the karma of John Lennon. I am speaking strictly for myself here, but I'm inclined to believe that he was a bloodied warrior in a previous life. Throughout his life, John Lennon was on a ceaseless, tireless campaign against violence, war, and killing, and the most striking thing about him was that he began this work at home, with himself. He had a violent streak and used to beat up on his first wife, Cynthia. He also got into bar brawls easily. The beautiful gentleman we saw at 40 was so very different from the teenage Lennon; his relatively short life is a rich study of the karma of a truly progressive homeless soul of the Michael age - especially because of his unscrupulous honesty. But check out everything he said and did about death, war, guns, and killing. One of his songs was "Happiness is a Warm Gun." Did you see John Lennon in the 1966 movie "How I Won the War"? There is a scene there where his sitting in the battlefield with a blast in the belly, holding his outbulging guts in his hands, grinning foolishly at the camera and saying: "You knew this was going to happen, didn't you?" Check out John Lennon's donation of bullet proof vests to the NYPD. Because he loved cops? I don't think so; his mother was killed by an off-duty cop driving drunk when Lennon was a kid, and was himself framed by an ambitious cop planting cannabis in his London apartment. So he had no preference for men in blue. The reason why John Lennon donated bullet proof vests to the NYPD was that he did not like the idea of people getting shot. Cops are targets.

It's amazing to see John Lennon's persistent crusade against guns, killings, wars and violence - especially when we take that fateful December day in 1980 into account. It's stunning. And deeply moving. I won't speculate further about John Lennons previous lives, because Detlef is right when he urges caution and respect concerning such things. Steiner says that such mysteries are apt to fill us with a holy shyness. I have no inkling about whether or not there was any connection between John Lennon and his assassin, Mark David Chapman. None whatsoever. The problem is that this picture is far more complicated than a question of individual karma. When The Beatles came to the United States as "the British Invasion" in 1964, on the eve of the Vietnam War so to speak, in the footsteps of increasing national chauvinism and militarism, making fun of songs like Chuck Berry's "Back in the USA" and The Beach Boys' "Surfing USA" with "Back in the USSR", they became, to a certain extent, the saviors of America from the dangers of nationalism. And when John Lennon was shot, America had not seen such grief since the assassination of KFK in Dallas seventeen years earlier. All those old enough to remember are aware of where they were and what they were doing when they heard about John Lennon's death - just like the case had been with JFK. The grief that struck Americans when John Lennon was murdered - a grief that all kinds of psychiatrists and talk show hosts and preachers were at a loss to explain - contributed further to the salvation of America from nationalism.

The media, of course, had tried to make a patriotic icon of Lennon in a clumsy and false kind of way by asking leading questions. But how do you do that to a guy that Washington, under the Nixon administration, had been doing everything in its power to deport? A man who ranked high on the FBI enemy list, supporting about fifteen ultra-radical leftist causes, including the IRA (before their bombings of innocents began) and the Black Panthers? It's impossible. He remained an anti-Establishment superhero. That's what worried the FBI so much. There has been speculation, of course, that Chapman may have been hypnotized by a government agency and acted on a phone coll to his hotel room by his hypnotist, but let's leave that to Christine's department if she can dig up something interesting. I don't subscribe to such a theory, but I have an open mind as always. The point I'm making here is not the karma involved nor the possibility of an Oliver Stone-inspired conspiracy idea, but the very impact the tragedy of John Lennon's death had on society.

Something else comes to mind: It was in 1987, I seem to recall, that president Reagan sat down with first secretary Gorbachev in Reykjavik. (This had been made possible by a private visit to Moscow by Richard Nixon a year earlier, when he persuaded Gorbie to deal with Reagan because a liberal president wouldn't get the support of Congress for a disarmament deal.) Anyway, Yoko Ono came out to the press and said that John Lennon was right there in Reykjavik watching over the proceedings, helping peace to be given a chance. I'm inclined to take her word for it. I believe John Lennon may have had a hand in the end of the Cold War.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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