Islam, Christianity, and Justice....

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:07 pm
Subject: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

I have no doubt that the path of the Sufi is a bona fide spiritual stream with roots in Islam that can easily join the Anthroposophical Movement if it hasn't already done so. But such spiritual paths are heresies, just like Anthroposophy is a heresy in the eyes of orthodox Christians. Christian heretics don't get executed for their crimes any more, but Muslim heretics do. And this is one of the reasons why the vengeful and violent hawks of the Christian Coalition have been casting admiring and envious glances at repressive Muslim regimes for years, before they became their sworn enemies in the aftermath of 9-11.

These Christian fundies especially loved the meting out of justice in Muslim countries, and they bragged that it was the most effective way to combat crime. They would like to see life-threatening public flogging for vandalism introduced in America. As for capital punishment, lethal injections lack the thrill that goes right to your id, which happens when you watch a beheading in Saudi Arabia. Besides, beheadings and amputations don't only have the benefit of reducing crime; great swordmanship is developed, and it must be a beauty to watch a professional sword-wielder in action like that. Besides, decapitation is the most humane method of killing a person because death is instant (which is why the guillotine was invented by a physician), but it's too messy for American public taste. It's ok in movies, but not when it's for real live from the prison. Besides, the prison guards in the West may know how to shoot, but they probably need some practice with the blade.

The Arabs do it in the public square in the middle of town. (When I say they "do it," I don't mean they have sex in the public square; on the contrary, they execute people for having had sex with the wrong persons at the wrong times.)

Christian fundies love the Muslim regimes for punishing infidelity, out-of-wedlock pregnancies and other sexual indiscretions, preferably with death, because Moses suggested a similar approach to law and justice. And America would get its act straight if only the law of Moses would replace the Constitution and be enforced by a newborn Christian full of merciless hell who is willing to clean up the country, even if it entails beheading his own mother.

Blasphemy is also a capital crime and should be punished accordingly.

Check this out:

http://www.pluto.no/Doogie/Ga/huset/kmv/artikler/basta2a.html

This is a twelve year old interview with Saeed AL Sayaf, Saudi Arabia's executioner. The text is Norwegian, but the photographs tell the whole story: A guy is being beheaded for having insulted Allah with some blasphemous remarks.

Affectionate greetings & sweet dreams,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: lightsearcher1
Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:15 pm
Subject: re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

Welcome to the shrewd, calculating Orwellian (and DUPLICITOUS) victim-speak of Soratian Western Islam -- which conspires to use Eu-rope (and its freedoms) with which to hang us:

http://www.secularislam.net/archives/000024.html

http://www.secularislam.net/archives/000023.html

--- "lightsearcher1" wrote:

(quoting another:) It is folly to equate automatically what Steiner is calling here "Arabism" with Islam.

As much as you proceed to overly-complexify, mix and muddle from this line forward, the fact is that Steiner makes EXPLICIT EQUATION of Arabism to Islam in this lecture.

In these lectures, Steiner is manifestly using Arabism and Islam as pre-eminent synonyms. Don't believe me? -- I will quote examples as soon as I access the book (which is going back on my bookshelf today after a residential move this week.)

Change "Mohammed" by "The Prophets" and you have the same thing (or maybe worse?) in modern militant Judaism.

HERE IT IS -- The repellant and frightening anti-Semitism regnant through the globe today has taken residence. He is telling us that Judaism is worse than Soratian Islam.

You use the words "modern militant Judaism" when all around the globe you have a TRUE indiscriminate Soratian militancy blowing up human beings -- professionals, mothers, fathers, and babies and children -- going about their business in office or street or synagogue.

ISLAM has PERSECUTION OF OTHERS written into its core NEVER-EVOLVING principles --

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

The Jews have never subjugated others in the way that Christians and Muslims and Europeans have persecuted them.

Please don't cite me -- as "a persecuted people" the Palestinians toward whom and with whom Israel is EVER-READY to be at peace -- though the contrary is untrue in quite an ugly way:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L3A023F96

The whole of Western (read Christian) civilization is guilty of "Arabism".

Here it is: the "Syndrome of the Left" -- Relativism -- where everybody is equally Right or everybody is equally Wrong.

Expressions such as yours are further proof that proto-Lefties ALWAYS EXCUSE -- AND NEVER HOLD OTHER CULTURES -- to the SAME UNIVERSAL STANDARDS to which the demand the WEST adhere.

You demand of the West "multi-culturalism," but proto-Lefties like yourself permanently exculpate and excuse non-Western cultures from adherence to the same "universal" standards.

In your eyes, they can be excused from blowing our civilians to kingdom come -- because the West is just so damnably bad.

"We" have to show toward them civil rights, but NEVER would you vigorously demand the same of THEM toward US, because (your mindset would say) "that's not part of their cultural/traditional experience."

Your explication is a proof-text example of Malcolm Muggeridge's perceptive insight that "modern man has educated himself into imbecility."

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From: lightsearcher1
Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

Speaking of Islam and Justice (and Truthfulness), one of the great occult mottos of Islam is:

"We are Lying Ba_tards by Divine Decree"

http://www.stormoskenejtak.dk/british/taqija.htm

http://www.stormoskenejtak.dk/british/legal.htm

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

At 22:30 23.11.2003, lightsearcher1 wrote:

Speaking of Islam and Justice (and Truthfulness), one of the great occult mottos of Islam is:

"We are Lying Ba_tards by Divine Decree"

Sounds like the Scientologists. I believe Scientology has a lot in common with Islam. "Professional lying," advanced intelligence networks, field agents, the facade of tolerating other religions while regarding them as enemies to be destroyed, etc. Promising liberty and delivering slavery. Both ideologies regard Christianity as their number one enemy.

Thank you for the links.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:23 pm
Subject: Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....


--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume wrote:

At 22:30 23.11.2003, lightsearcher1 wrote:

Speaking of Islam and Justice (and Truthfulness), one of the great occult mottos of Islam is:

"We are Lying Ba_tards by Divine Decree"

Dottie:
Hi Lightsearcher, (I don't have your name in this post, pardon me)

I'd like to know what the original words in Arabic are to this quote you have above? Also I am wondering if this is considered a 'great occult motto of Islam' who's quote is it? Also if it is an 'occult' motto wouldn't that designate a ' he who has ears to hear and he who has eyes to see' understanding.

Tarjei:
Sounds like the Scientologists. I believe Scientology has a lot in common with Islam. "Professional lying," advanced intelligence networks, field agents, the facade of tolerating other religions while regarding them as enemies to be destroyed, etc. Promising liberty and delivering slavery. Both ideologies regard Christianity as their number one enemy.

Hey Tarjei,

I am realy sorry but once again I believe we are speaking of Islamic fundies which truly do not represent all of Islam nor the majority. Scientology is represented by all those things as they were founded on this particular ideology of a man made mandate. Islam is not, it is spiritual based.

Truly, without trying to insult my compatriots that may feel differently about the Bush administration, I have to say I really believe Christianity, in the way they have carried themselves in the world, rightly or wrongly, is representing the same ideas you have posted above about Islam and Scientology.

My best,

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:27 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

At 05:23 25.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

I am realy sorry but once again I believe we are speaking of Islamic fundies which truly do not represent all of Islam nor the majority. Scientology is represented by all those things as they were founded on this particular ideology of a man made mandate. Islam is not, it is spiritual based.

Truly, without trying to insult my compatriots that may feel differently about the Bush administration, I have to say I really believe Christianity, in the way they have carried themselves in the world, rightly or wrongly, is representing the same ideas you have posted above about Islam and Scientology.

We're not only talking about ideas here, but about terrorist activities as a tool to aquire world domination. There are racist organizations, hate groups etc. on the radical right that call themselves Christians, and who carry out terrorist attacks against innocent random victims. The KKK has been with us for decades, but it has shrunk to a faint shadow of the power it enjoyed in the 1960's, and its mischief is almost non-existent thanks to grassroot organizations like Klanwatch. Tim McVeigh may have been partially motivated by a Christian ideology of sorts when he planted the Oklahoma City bomb as a revenge against the Waco massacre by the FBI, but he was primarily misled through military training and his role in Desert Storm.

There are also Christian fundies who murder abortionalists, and gays have been lynched and killed by right wing Christians for generations. There are Christian paramilitary survivalist groups with racist, sometimes even Nazi, ideologies.

But in spite of all this, there are some outstanding differences between Christian and Muslim excesses. We have yet to see Christian suicide missions, for instance. The closest comparison to Muslim suicide bombers has to be the Japanese Kamasaki pilots during World War II. To them, the Emperor was God, and their final words were "Long live the Emperor!" - which is quite reminiscent of the well-known "God is great!" or "Allah is the greatest!" that we hear from suicidal Muslims.

Another difference of great importance is that Islam has never gone through the equivalent of the Renaissance and the Reformation that helped adapt Christianity to modern times. There are moderate Muslims in Europe who believe that a similar reform is necessary, but if their sentiments should be uttered in Iran, for instance, they would probably lose their heads to the sword.

For this reason, there are significant differences between Christian and Muslim fundamentalism. If Christian fundies were really of the exact same ilk as their Muslim counterparts, they would stone women to death for infidelity, plot to blow up most U.S. cities for being like Sodom and Gomorrah and so on.

I confess that my take on Islam may be biased, prejudiced. It's a prejudice I've had long before September 11 2001. I can't stand blind obedience, and I strongly dislike the sight of hoardes of people prostrating themselves in a unison unconditional surrender to an external metaphysical dictator. I find it repugnant; it freaks me out, it disturbs me and worries me deeply.

We need humanism today with the individual human being in the center - the autonomous, self-dependent human being with a fully developed thinking. It doesn't matter if this humanism is atheistic or religious or agnostic. From that position, one is free to "serve somebody" as Bob Dylan puts it, but this must happen as an act of freedom. The surrender in Islam appears to me to be a result of coercion and threats and indoctrination and brainwashing, with dire consequences for disobedience or heresy.

I also have Muslim friends, very good friends, mostly from Africa, and we usually talk about things other than religion. But you should have heard me when I discussed the fatwa against Rushdie with a buddy of mine from Sudan some years back. I told him off for his support of the fatwa very strongly, in no uncertain terms, and in a manner that can only be done between people who have known each other for a long time. That's why it's so important that Muslims in the West are not only integrated and assimilated, but influenced by us in such a way that they are given the opportunity to break away from their dangerous and destructive cult and become ex-Muslims.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:56 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

Tarjei wrote:
We're not only talking about ideas here, but about terrorist activities as a tool to aquire world domination.

Okay Tarjei, lets look at how this all began in the first place. With every action there is a reaction. Who has it been that has had had their hand in every single pie in the last fifty years?

The US has been hellbent on domination and destruction all in the name of making other peoples like our own Christian peoples. Once the oppression begins of one country to another the ones with bigger guns have to deal with an insurgency that will find other ways to rebel. Just last week alone, the US Army was given the okay to use lethal force on rock throwing prisoners of war held inside a barbed wire fence. I believe eight people were killed. Rock throwers versus bullets. Will these rock throwers unite again and throw rocks at the invaders even if death is immminent. Absolutely. Why? Because they refuse to be held prisoners in their own homeland. They refuse to have Christianity shoved down their throats. What a disgrace and does nothing to inspire a people to even respect Christ or the people who claim to worship Him.

So, from rock throwers they grow up to find other ways to ease their oppressions. And that means massive deaths to those who dare to continue this oppression. Even the Israel Army is catching on that things are getting worse. Bullets can not stop a mans spirit from acheiving what is believes stands in the way of freedom. You can not oppress people into obediance. Not when they feel God is on their side and backs their want for their own homeland to worship as they will.

So we have nuclear bombs they have human bombs. Isreal has nuclear they have human bombs. It be interesting to see what the first suicide bommber was and what it was in reaction to or rather what its goal was.

Tarjei
There are racist organizations, hate groups etc. on the radical right that call themselves Christians, and who carry out terrorist attacks against innocent random victims. The KKK has been with us for decades, but it has shrunk to a faint shadow of the power it enjoyed in the 1960's, and its mischief is almost non-existent thanks to grassroot organizations like Klanwatch.

Dottie

Yeah, its 'mischief' has gotten really intelligent by going underground. Now we have hidden politicians with KK leanings who are voted into office. A wink here another wink there and all is consolidated. It had to hide because it was repulsive to the main stream. But it is getting stronger I believe and that begins with the dismantling of certain protections that were afforded people of color, that is the non white color, to be able to put food on their table and a shot at acheiving the American Dream, in my opinion.

Tarjei
But in spite of all this, there are some outstanding differences between Christian and Muslim excesses. We have yet to see Christian suicide missions, for instance.

Dottie

Tarjei, do you have any idea how many innocent people were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? What would you call these? Are they not suicide missions because the one with the guns and machines do not die. There is a massive murdering going on in Iraq and it is just deplorable. I do not think my soldiers are the blame it is the Christian run government that lied to us and so arrogantly believed and knew they would find weapons of mass destruction. And they have great support from other Christian right organizations including their churches. I have no doubt they really believed they would be justified. Well, Saddam had the last laugh on the Bushs personal agenda.

Tarjei
The closest comparison to Muslim suicide bombers has to be the Japanese Kamasaki pilots during World War II. To them, the Emperor was God, and their final words were "Long live the Emperor!" - which is quite reminiscent of the well-known "God is great!" or "Allah is the greatest!" that we hear from suicidal Muslims.

Dottie

Well, in my mind we do the exact same thing but we are much smarter than they. If they had the guns I do not believe they would need to sacrifice their physical bodies although they do not mind. And Allah is great. And just as this Christian administration believes it is in a holy war and are willing to sacrifice other mens sons for their God so do the others. They are smart. They recognize a holy war when they see one. They have no doubt and neither do I.

Tarjei
Another difference of great importance is that Islam has never gone through the equivalent of the Renaissance and the Reformation that helped adapt Christianity to modern times.

Dottie

I do not even think they had made time. They have never been out of war. The west has had a hand in their business for ever. The cold war with Russia and the arming of all their men by our country helped to really show them how to wage a war. And they know their enemy well as they fought beside him for many years in helping to keep the 'evil' non god communist people down.

We gave these people weapons that they used for genocide against the Iranians in their long war. We knew what Sadamm had because WE gave it to him.

The idea of reformation can come when people have a chance to stop fighting all the outsiders for a place to breathe in their own homeland.

Tarjei
There are moderate Muslims in Europe who believe that a similar reform is necessary, but if their sentiments should be uttered in Iran, for instance, they would probably lose their heads to the sword.

Dottie

Actually there is a reform movement in Iran and they are not cutting off their heads. And I will have to ask you why is it that this extreme group is in charge? Is it not the Americans who tried to overthrow their goverment and ushered in the extreme Ayahtolah (sp)? He was actually exiled from that country and for good reason before the US got involved.

Don't forget how many peoples in Afghanistan fought the Taliban until they lost. Sadamm Husein did not give into the Shiites even though they are 60% of the populations. He did not give into the al Quaida group either. He knew they were extremists and did not want any of that. The women were well taken care of and had many in their political system as well as colleges. We go over there and have set back the cause for womens rights who knows how many years. The women did not wear the scarves and in fact have now had to return to this due to the Shiites. And I hate to even acknowledge this thought that the Shiites are going to be in power after this is all said and done. And then we are really in trouble if we care about human rights. That triangle of Syria, Iran and Iraq will shake the world which will possibly bring Pakistan with them. Turkey will be in big trouble.

And after this is all said and done the Americans can keep saying how barbaric the middle easterners who follow Muhammed are without even a tiny bit of self reflection to see where they played the activating role in this type of behaviour still continuing. And of course it will all fall down to Muhammeds fault. I wonder why people do not blame Jesus when his people killed others in his name. Probably due to all the propaganda against Muhammed that is so easily to be believed as we really do not check outside of what others have said about him. We so readily believe the negative. No thinking behaviour involved in going along with others.

Tarjei
For this reason, there are significant differences between Christian and Muslim fundamentalism. If Christian fundies were really of the exact same ilk as their Muslim counterparts, they would stone women to death for infidelity, plot to blow up most U.S. cities for being like Sodom and Gomorrah and so on.

Dottie

Oh jeez Tarjei. Christian fundies do it in a more intelligent way. They have no need to do this as they just need to claim the bible shows men are superior and women are the downfall of man. The Baptist organization actually split a few years back due to the idea being put into action that a woman must defer all to her husband and begin to walk behind her man. Literally.

And a major difference to me that shows the disgusting part of Christain fundies is that they have indeed blown up a country for their god. AND the Muslim is not doing this to bring Allah to America. They are doing it to keep America out of its lands and its business. We are the ones doing it in the name of Christianity.

I think people miss the point when they say it was for oil that we invaded. It was not. It was for Christ. He is a born again Christian looking who believe they are at the ends of time. That is what born agains do: tryi to bring the end so we can meet our maker. And it is revelations. In the words of the general "It was God that put Bush in office, not the people" and for this time.

Now, on a spiritual level we can look past all the he said she said and so forth. We can actually look to see what the overview of such a thing is. These muslims encourage me to humble myself before God even more than I thought I could. The idea of praying three times a day is astounding in its effeciency. The constant call to God is beatiful.

Tarjei
I confess that my take on Islam may be biased, prejudiced.

Dottie

I think it is uneducated which produces prejudice. We read and watch what is splashed across the headlines and we do not investigate further. I mean they are the largest growing population among religions. Why is that?

Tarjei
It's a prejudice I've had long before September 11 2001.

Dottie

And I use to have this prejudice long before September 11 as well. But I realized that I felt manipulated by the press. The more muslims I met the more I worked inside my self to understand what was going on? Here I hear all these terrible things and yet my muslim friends love God so much that it is inspiring. And they love Muhammed for showing them the way. And I am still trying to educate myself outwardly as I know inwardly there is a reason for all of this and I am not to turn against my brother in any instance and I am to rise to the occasion past human thinking.

Tarjei
I can't stand blind obedience, and I strongly dislike the sight of hoardes of people prostrating themselves in a unison unconditional surrender to an external metaphysical dictator.

Dottie

What external metaphysical dictator are you speaking of here? The Kaaba? That is their pilgrimage. That is an energy field tied to the spirit of God. And all may come. Just like we have in Mount Shasta and Sedona. However to get Americans to take a month off or even a week off in name of real religious reverence without it being the fundies would be beyond a possibility at this point in time unless of course we have no where else to go in another great tragedy unlike any other we have seen. Let's hope we come to our senses before we are brought to them. Yet, the muslims do this to the best of their ability even carrying their mothers on their backs.

Tarjei
From that position, one is free to "serve somebody" as Bob Dylan puts it, but this must happen as an act of freedom. The surrender in Islam appears to me to be a result of coercion and threats and indoctrination and brainwashing, with dire consequences for disobedience or heresy.

Dottie

Well, I disagree totally. And I think it goes to show how much hatred, fear and disinformation has been thrown at this people. How dare them to have a prophet after Christ already came. Christ is the one and only and none can speak after him save the priests that have been so ordained and are to be looked at as the servants of God and even their words are to be honored as if they came from God Himself. And this is from its earlies inception. Pretty ridiculous for a free minded thinking people. One can not even utter today in a Christian community that one has their own revelations or even reads the words differently without it being called devil inspired. I have a funny feeling that at the end of the day we will see Christian against Christian not Christian against Muslim. As it was in the beginning.

Tarjei
But you should have heard me when I discussed the fatwa against Rushdie with a buddy of mine from Sudan some years back. I told him off for his support of the fatwa very strongly, in no uncertain terms, and in a manner that can only be done between people who have known each other for a long time.

Dottie

Well, as I stated before there were 25 major Muslim groups out of 26 that as well condemned the Fatwa but nobody talks of that. They only talk of the ignorant ones who put forth this decree.

Tarjei
That's why it's so important that Muslims in the West are not only integrated and assimilated, but influenced by us in such a way that they are given the opportunity to break away from their dangerous and destructive cult and become ex-Muslims.

Dottie

Why would you want them to become ex-Muslims and not step up to the next level of Sufi? For that is their own personal way to Christ. And many are finding it bit by bit. But not by war and not by annihilating their Prophet who leads to God.

It was Muhammed, like Christ, who broke the blood ties to the clans that operated in his part of the world. And the blood ties were the biggest honor, up their with their Goddess worship ,that the people lived their lives by. It was Muhammend that brought his particular people to God. And this particular point in time had Christians against Christians. Christians were not going to be the ones to bring these Arabs to God nor the Jews who looked down upon this group of warrioring family bands fighting for their own particular territory. It was Muhammed.

Sincerely,

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:54 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

At 16:56 26.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

The US has been hellbent on domination and destruction all in the name of making other peoples like our own Christian peoples.

I disagree. The US has been hellbent on domination and destruction all in the name of making other peoples consume American products and make room for American companies. The Christian agenda is not pursued by US politicians, but by eccentric missionaries who excpect the rapture to happen with Science Officer John or Captain Jesus beaming them onboard as soon as everyone in the world has heard Jerry Falwell's Old Time Gospel Hour.

Once the oppression begins of one country to another the ones with bigger guns have to deal with an insurgency that will find other ways to rebel. Just last week alone, the US Army was given the okay to use lethal force on rock throwing prisoners of war held inside a barbed wire fence. I believe eight people were killed. Rock throwers versus bullets.

What you're describing is the stupidity of politics and militarism. The history of US foreign policy is in some ways equivalent to a story about an elephant who wants to go shopping in a china store. He picks up a shopping cart and wants to walk gently, but he has this huge trunk that gets in the way all the time... And sometimes the whole building rambles down, so he walks into another store instead.

Will these rock throwers unite again and throw rocks at the invaders even if death is immminent. Absolutely. Why? Because they refuse to be held prisoners in their own homeland. They refuse to have Christianity shoved down their throats. What a disgrace and does nothing to inspire a people to even respect Christ or the people who claim to worship Him.

Although destructive aspects of American politics domestic and foreign are fuelled by the Religious Right, the execution of foreign politics remains secular and pragmatic, motivated by the Almighty Dollar. The Christian talk is only hogwash being fed to the administration's kitchen cabinet. But what is more important is that those who shape and carry out the policy in Iraq and elsewhere, sincerely believe that they are promoting freedom, democracy and other goodies.

Steiner predicted that America will degenerate completely in the Seventh Sub-Race (i.e. in the 7th Cultural Epoch):

The Sixth Sub-Race will develop a Super-psychic Manas. What with human beings today is merely a kind of knowledge will become actual reality, a social force. The Sixth Sub-Race has the task of permeating society in a social way with everything which has been produced by the preceding stages of evolution. Then for the first time Christianity will come forth as shaper of the social order. The Sixth Sub-Race will be the one which is the germinal foundation for the Sixth Root-Race. The Fifth Root-Race is descended from the original Semites, from the Fifth Sub-Race of the Fourth Root-Race. This people developed the individual ego which produces egoism. Man owes his independence to the original Semites. Man must find himself, but then again must also surrender himself. He must surrender himself to what makes thought a reality. The Sixth Sub-Race is destined to replace blood relationship with Manas relationship, relationship in the spirit. Thinking which is altruistic will develop the predisposition to the overcoming of egoism.

The Seventh Sub-Race will be a premature birth. It will make outwardly real too soon and too strongly what has come forth from Manas.

In the Sixth Sub-Race the predisposition will be given for the overcoming of egoism, but in such a way that the balance is held between selfhood and selflessness. The man of the Sixth Sub-Race will neither lose himself in what is outside, nor shut himself up in what is within. With the Seventh Sub-Race a kind of hypertrophy will come about. Man will then pour out what he now has within him: his egoism. On the other hand the members of the Sixth Sub-Race will hold the balance. The Seventh Sub-Race will harden egoism. Later the English-American people will be projected as something rigified into the Sixth Root-Race, just as today the Chinese are a rigified residue of the Atlantean Age, the Fourth Root-Race.

World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race. From that direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism. So it is from there that the whole Earth will be covered by a network of egoistic evil. But from a small colony in the East [the Slavonic peoples} there will be developed, as though from a seed, new life for the future.

The English-American civilization consumes European culture. The sects in England and America represent nothing other than the most incredible conservation of what is old. But such Societies as the Salvation Army, the Theosophical Society and so on, come into existence just there, in order to rescue souls from decadence, for race evolution does not run parallel with soul evolution. But the race itself is going towards its destruction. Within it is the seed of the evil race.

In the Fourth Sub-Race work was performed as tribute (Slave Labor)

In the Fifth Sub-Race work is performed as commodity (sold)

In the Sixth Sub-Race work will be performed as an offering (free work)

The economic needs of existence will then be separated from work: there will be no more personal possession, everything will be owned in common. One will no longer work for one's personal existence, but will do everything as absolute offering for humanity.

(Foundations of Esotericism, Lecture XXVII, Berlin, 30th October 1905 - Grundelemente der Esoterik, GA 93a)

So, from rock throwers they grow up to find other ways to ease their oppressions. And that means massive deaths to those who dare to continue this oppression.

"Better free your mind instead" - John Lennon ("Revolution")

Even the Israel Army is catching on that things are getting worse. Bullets can not stop a mans spirit from acheiving what is believes stands in the way of freedom.

The spirit achieves nothing but enhanced hatred and hostility and further destruction and oppression by this method. What the Palestinians need is a Muslim representative equivalent to Mahatma Gandhi; someone who understands that the end does NOT justify the means. A non-violent revolutionary who could prove unstoppable if the right methods were used: Love your enemies.

You can not oppress people into obediance.

That's not the idea. The idea is to oppress them into hatred.

Says RS:

For example, in the case of the people of the Central countries and the Eastern lands it is an important hindrance to the evolution of these capacities, especially their evolution in a knowing way, when strong antipathies against the people of the Western countries are active within them. Then these things cannot be viewed objectively. This is a hindrance in the evolution of these capacities.

But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as barbarians. The potentialities of material occultism, for example, are fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction. If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not have this support.

("The Challenge of the Times - 12 lectures from November 29 and December 1, 1919, GA #186: Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit In reänderter Zeitage: December 1, 1918: Die Entwickelung mechanischer, eugenetischer und hygienischer okkulter Fähigkeiten in der Zukunft)

(See my article at http://www.uncletaz.com/seclodg.html )

Not when they feel God is on their side and backs their want for their own homeland to worship as they will.

God on their side? Reminds me of another Dylan classic:

http://bobdylan.com/songs/withgod.html

<snip>

And a major difference to me that shows the disgusting part of Christain fundies is that they have indeed blown up a country for their god. AND the Muslim is not doing this to bring Allah to America. They are doing it to keep America out of its lands and its business. We are the ones doing it in the name of Christianity.

The Muslims do indeed have an agenda to win the world, including Europe and America, for Islam. They have expressed intentions of establishing Muslim regimes in all nations, beginning with the countries where the majority of the populations are Muslims. That's why they're so hot in Turkey right now. They can't stand to see a Muslim nation with a secular pro-West regime.

Steiner's strong words about Mohammedanism and Sorath was primarily about Mohammedanism in Europe, in the West.

<I had to snip the rest of your long post, because I'm on my way to work.>

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:13 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Islam, Christianity, and justice....

As a summary of my last long post:

As long as the Palestinians and other Muslim rebels practice hatred and retribution against their enemies, they're bound to lose, and they only harden the hearts of their oppressors. Gandhi's strategy was to love his enemies and soften their hearts by appealing to their conscience. He refused to play the eye-for-an-eye game. Gandhi and Martin Luther King were victorious for this very reason, under the guidance of Christ-Michael.

The Muslim terrorists are obviously not under the guidance of Christ-Michael, regardless of how justified their cause may be. And without an approach in harmony with the Spirit of the Age, but stuck in the desert of the 14th century with bricks in their hands, they cannot hope for victory.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Gisele
Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:50 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] If (was Islam, Christianity, and justice....)

Hi Tarjei.
Let's imagine that a great Michael inspired leader rise in Palestine today: do you think the Israeli leaders would soften their hearts?

.............................................................................................................................

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] If (was Islam, Christianity, and justice....)


At 23:50 29.11.2003, Gisele wrote:

Let's imagine that a great Michael inspired leader rise in Palestine today:do you think the Israeli leaders would soften their hearts?

It worked on the British, and it worked on white Americans. I won't make the claim that it will work on absolutely everyone - Gandhi tried to reason with Hitler by writing to him - but the Israeli leadership has always consisted of individuals very similar to, and close to, Western leaders. It's the Western Jews who hold the cards there, not the Jews from Russia, Africa, etc. Israel is part and parcel of the Western Establishment. So of course a leader of this description could turn Israel's politics around 180 degrees. The political, economic, and military support from the West would be the first casualty when the sight of non-violent, peaceful protesters being beaten and killed hits the TV screens around the world. That's how Britain lost their rule in India (even without television), when the imperial police clubbed down peaceful picketeers, maiming and killing them, in front of the salt factory. It was the final blow to their control, through the exposure of moral bankruptcy.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Daniel Hindes
Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:01 pm
Subject: Taqayyah

"We are Lying Ba_tards by Divine Decree"

Dottie:
Hi Lightsearcher, (I don't have your name in this post, pardon me)

I'd like to know what the original words in Arabic are to this quote you have above? Also I am wondering if this is considered a 'great occult motto of Islam' who's quote is it? Also if it is an 'occult' motto wouldn't that designate a ' he who has ears to hear and he who has eyes to see' understanding.

While "We are Lying Ba_tards by Divine Decree" may overstate the case slightly, it is only slightly. There is a doctrine called "Taqayyah" which is variously interpreted. It is based on three verses of the Qu'ran, but the implications and commentary by various Islamic scholars in the historical development of Islam become part of Islamic law. In its mildest form, it allows Muslims to forgo their required religious duties if showing that they are Muslim would bring harm to them or other Muslims. "We basically understand taqiyyah as being an ordinance aimed at the protection of the lives of individuals and their personal interests, so long as that does not violate the basic principles and political commitment to society." (http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/heir.htm) (see also http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=405571 and http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/10.htm).

The implications have lead Islamic religious scholars to the next logical step:

"Imam al-Ghazzali narrates that protecting the Muslim blood is obligatory, and lying is obligatory to prevent shedding the blood of a Muslim." (http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/10.htm).

By some it has been extended to cover converting non-believers to islam under false pretenses, that is, not revealing some of the harder aspects of the faith until after conversion (at which point apostacy is punished by death - http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm) (http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid\/ahlibayt/shiism_vs_islam.html#P2).

"Muslims are sometimes accused of lying when they are presenting Islam in a manner that is acceptable to the listener. But this is a common educational strategy. It is not difficult to determine and understand that different people understand words differently. This causes them to misunderstand what a person is saying. This may lead to many futile arguments or to long discussions to clarify what is meant. The intelligent thing to do, therefore, is to learn about the culture of a people, their ideas and values and about how they use and understand language. Then to explain things accordingly rather than by a literal translation of the Quran which was primarily designed for another people in another age." (http://www.altway.freeuk.com/Answers/175-ReLying.htm)

These versions all originate in the Shî'ah branch of Islam. The Sunni branch vehemently opposes all of the implied versions, and some accuse all Shi'ia of practicing it against Sunni's (http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_taqayyah.htm) From a Sunni website:

"In spite of the differences among the various Shi'ite sects, they all agree that Taqiyyah is a prescribed duty and a pillar of their faith! Their schools of thought could not stand without it. It is a Shi'ite tradition that "Taqiyyah is my faith and the faith of my forefathers." They also say that "whosoever does not practice taqiyyah he has no faith"." (http://www.infolanka.com/people/hidaayah/B2S-001.htm)

These interpretations are disputed by other Islamic scholars, who claim that none of the above interpretations are valid (http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/taqiyyah/en/index.php) in true Islam (as an aside, there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement on what "true" Islam actually is). None the less, there remain quite a few people in the world who believe in one or another of the above.

So Dotti,

There is no phrase in Arabic that states the above exactly, however it is a much-discussed point of doctrine.

Daniel

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