Lazarus/ John Salome


From: golden3000997
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:19 am
Subject: Lazarus/ John Salome

Dear Dottie,

I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my interpretations, but in this last response, you have brought in a number of statements that certainly don't come from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite references fully. There are a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "I think that is what is meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a personal belief system only.

I hope that I have made it clear in these discussions when I am giving an "interpretation" of what I am working with as a reference point. I think that there is always room for some interpretation, but that is not the same thing as denying that an idea or fact (conceptual or spiritual) was not there in the first place. When Frank said "that never happened" about what I stated regarding the Threefold Social Order being placed on the table at Versailles, I had to go back and check my sources. I have found my sources and am preparing to present them to you all. I can't find the words "on the table" in what I have found, but the extent to which the Threefold Social Order was placed in front of the political and even military forces of the time was astonishing!!

If I mix red and blue and tell you I made purple and you say "No you didn't ever make purple." Something may be wrong. You can discuss the finer points about the hues, tones and shadings and the words "lilac" "red-violet" "blue-violet" etc. in order to come to a finer understanding and perception of the color that is clearly observable on the paper. But to say that it is green means that something is amiss, conceptually or perceptually. As I understand the "Philosophy of Spiritual Activity." Rudolf Steiner's entire work is based on the premise or idea that there is such a thing as objective reality, both sense perceptible and perceptible by senses which the individual must develop. And that with healthy senses, two or more people can come to an agreement in defining the reality of an object or an idea because it contains that reality in the concept inherent in it. So, if you and I are looking at a chair, we might "argue" or discuss whether it's a Chippendale or Georgian piece of work, but if one of us says it's a table, something's amiss.

To state categorically that John (interpret him as you will) was not at the foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these words

John 19:25
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

John 19:26
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

This is the way John describes himself at the Last Supper:

John 19:27
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].

John 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 13:24
Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

John 13:25
He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

Now, if you want to say that in both cases He is referring to Mary Magdalene, I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary Magdalene is certainly intimately bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is part of both pictures. But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he wasn't there cannot be correct exoterically or esoterically. Perhaps you can't find Lazarus/ John because you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't worked out how they are connected. Also, I don't think that you will find Lazarus as Lazarus anymore, because he became John.

John 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

John 11:6
When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

John 11:7
Then after that saith he to [his] disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

John 11:8
[His] disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

John 11:12
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

John 11:13
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

John 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:15
And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

John 11:16
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

John 11:17
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.

John 11:18
Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

John 11:19
And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

John 11:20
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: b ut Mary sat [still] in the house.

John 11:21
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had
not died.

John 11:22
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give [it] thee.

John 11:23
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:27
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 11:28
And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.

John 11:29
As soon as she heard [that], she arose quickly, and came unto him.

John 11:30
Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.

John 11:31
The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.

John 11:32
Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

John 11:33
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

John 11:34
And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

John 11:35
Jesus wept.

John 11:36
Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

John 11:37
And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

John 11:38
Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

John 11:39
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.

John 11:40
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

John 11:41
Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

John 11:42
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

John 11:44
And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

John 11:45
Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

John 11:46
But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

John 11:47
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

John 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

John 11:49
And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

John 11:50
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

John 11:52
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

John 11:53
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

I want to be able to take the time for each point, but I only have time for this one this morning.

Christine

......................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:03 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Lazarus/ John Salome

Christine you wrote:

I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my interpretations, but in this last response, you have brought in a number of statements that certainly don't come from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite references fully.

Dear Christine,

You can not say my references do not come from the Bible because that is exactly where they come from. And I believe I was led to this through Steiners work. I would never have thought out of my own mind that Lazarus was not Lazarus. And my references come from inner work from the outer work to begin with as far as I can tell. Could have been always within me but I am only aware of it from an outer to inner experience on a mental level.

Christine

There are a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "I think that is what is meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a personal belief system only.

Dottie

That may be your take on what I have said but that is not how it is within me. I don't have a strong personal belief of this is right and this is wrong type of personality. I have lived life to such an extent that I find there are so many mysteries and when one door of learning looks like it has been escavated there seems to be another door that has been found to go through.

Christine

I have found my sources and am preparing to present them to you all.

Dottie

I have found my sources as well and they come from my interpretation of the words within the Bible as well as insights gleemed of Steiners work and the work I contemplate on. I did not expect that I would be having this conversation regarding Magdalene and my research inner and outer has been left to the way side a bit due to my film carreer, unfortunately.

Christine

To state categorically that John (interpret him as you will) was not at the foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these words

Dottie

I never said that Jesus did not say these words. I interpret them differently than you do.

Christine

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

John 19:26
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Dottie

He was talking about Magdalene as the disciple as best I can tell. Everything I have read and contemplated speaks to this for me, including the making of ALL disciples to become males. Magdalene had become male at this point in my opinion. She had become a rayer of Christlike love and that is why she could interpret the things the others could not. I think ChristJesus was also, (and here is where I would normally use the word belief as in a heart thing not in a mental belief system, or maybe it is better understood if I use the word, understand' instead of belief)calling out to the Heavens and Earth in a way that the Christ spirit was given over to the Mother Spirit.

Christine

This is the way John describes himself at the Last Supper:

John 19:27
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].

Dottie

I interpret within the Christ spirit given up to the Earth.

John 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

Dottie

Do you see Magdalene at the table? I see her at the table. And whom would lean on Jesus bosom? I believe if you read the Nag Hammadi there is a clear understanding that the one whom Jesus loved the most and was most comfortable and was considered his companion was Magdalene. She had just washed the feet in which Jesus was to follow and complete in the others.

John 13:24
Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

Dottie

Why wouldn't Peter have asked Jesus himself? He was right there. He was asking one who was much more intimately involved (and no I do not mean by sexual relations) than he or the others. Obviously if he asked the one who was leaning on Jesus bosom he could have asked Jesus as he was that close. I believe this passage speaks to the intimate loving relationship between the two.

Christine

Now, if you want to say that in both cases He is referring to Mary Magdalene, I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary Magdalene is certainly intimately bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is part of both pictures. But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he wasn't there cannot be correct exoterically or esoterically.

Dottie

Well, I guess I would have to know of what John you speak? John was not laying on his breast to the best of my inner work. Have you done the inner work on this in the sense that you were open to all possibilities? Its easy to say this cannot be exoterically or esoterically correct if you have not done the work on this particular piece. And I am not talking about 'believing' what one has read or thought was true from reading and light interpretation according to agreeing what others have said.

Again, I have to say this did not come to me easy in the sense that I just made it up. I was guided to each of these points through the spirit on a inspirational/intuitional level. To have just come up with an idea would never have occurred to me.

Christine

Perhaps you can't find Lazarus/ John because you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't worked out how they are connected.

Dottie

Well, I see Magdalene strongly because she has showed herself to me in a sense. However above all I am looking for the mystery not Dotties version of what the mystery is but the real mystery and what it means. I also know that there are many sides to this mystery. I don't understand Lazarus to be there in a physical form as a seperated human entity than Magdalene.

I also understand that the John/Lazarus is actually John/Magdalene. In John we are speaking of John the Baptist who is already beheaded are we not? He interpenetrated all of the spirits after his death I believe Dr. Steiner tells it. (Don't know that for my self thought)

Have you never thought of why they all wanted to kill Jesus specifically after this point? In my understanding of this it is an initiatory right of passege not the death as we know it. This practice was not uncommon among masters of faith. How are we supposing the other disciples who had reached certain levels of initiation had received them. The whole idea of holding a man under water until he could not breathe is also a part of this concept. It makes sense to me that they were outraged by it being a woman who was initiated. Have you never thought of why Martha went to see Jesus instead of Mary. It was Mary who sat at his feet and Martha who prepared the house. In this instance they have Mary 'sitting still' in the house. It is she who was always out and about with Jesus. What is this signifying to you?

Christine

Also, I don't think that you will find Lazarus as Lazarus anymore, because he became John.

Dottie

Nope can't do that. You have to look Christine if you want to know of what I speak. If Lazarus was a true being you would be able to interconnect with this or at least have a 'feeling' for it. Can you say that you do other than what you have been told? Have you ever even thought to look and see? I'll bet no because it was not told before nor is it a natural thought to consider contemplating. However, if you spend time to see the mystery mystery of this story I believe you will either be able to see of what I speak or at least have a conversation with me about your thoughts on it. Your own thoughts.

John 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

Dottie

Why, is Magdalene not mentioned?

John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Dottie

I understand this to be a direct reference to a Nag Hammadi quote regarding a question as to why Jesus love Mary more than them:

Gospel of Phillip "As for Wisdom who is called "the barren" she is hte mother of the angels. Adn the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss her on the mouth often. The rest of the disciples were offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? The savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees, are both together in the darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness. The Lord said, Blessed is he who is before he came into being. For he is, has been and shall be.

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Dottie

Who is stilled in the house?

John 11:16
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

Do you think that Thomas thought this was really a regular death? I interpret from his work he knew as well what was happening.

John 11:17
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.

John 11:18
Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

John 11:19
And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

John 11:20
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: b ut Mary sat [still] in the house.

Dottie

Why would it have been so?

John 11:21
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

Dottie

Here it seems to me that Martha is shown once again as one who does not understand spiritual things. Magdalene did not just pull herself up out of the hat into understanding. She had understanding from the beginning and it wasn't just a mooshy heart understanding. It was a Sophia understanding of things in my understanding.

Well, here the message is truncated and I am off to my coffee. I hope Christina you will not speak down to me and we will have a conversation even if we come to a disagreement. I will work on stating a thing that seems like I am calling it the all and all truth versus something I have come to.

In my little bible that is now in shreds I will share with you something I believe I was led to see differently one day than I had ever seen before. Although I always had questions I never found anyone who had the same ones as I. When I found Dr. Steiner I knew that I was not the only one and that he must have questioned in his spirit the many things I did regarding the bible, because he had many answers to my questions.

Here is the quote that kept calling out to me after a while: NOW a certain MAN was ill, NAMED Lazarus. MARY ....

Well, I am reading one of those new fangled Bibles for this reference as mine is at home and it does not have the exact words as I had read three years ago. So, I will bring this quote later on.

All My Best,

Dottie

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