Lazarus/ John Salome
From: golden3000997
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:19 am
Subject: Lazarus/ John Salome
Dear Dottie,
I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my
interpretations, but in this last response, you have brought
in a number of statements that certainly don't come from Steiner
or even the Bible and you don't cite references fully. There
are a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of
"I think that is what is meant by what I am referring to."
but in terms of a personal belief system only.
I hope that I have made it clear in these
discussions when I am giving an "interpretation" of
what I am working with as a reference point. I think that there
is always room for some interpretation, but that is not the same
thing as denying that an idea or fact (conceptual or spiritual)
was not there in the first place. When Frank said "that
never happened" about what I stated regarding the Threefold
Social Order being placed on the table at Versailles, I had to
go back and check my sources. I have found my sources and am
preparing to present them to you all. I can't find the words
"on the table" in what I have found, but the extent
to which the Threefold Social Order was placed in front of the
political and even military forces of the time was astonishing!!
If I mix red and blue and tell you I made
purple and you say "No you didn't ever make purple."
Something may be wrong. You can discuss the finer points about
the hues, tones and shadings and the words "lilac"
"red-violet" "blue-violet" etc. in order
to come to a finer understanding and perception of the color
that is clearly observable on the paper. But to say that it is
green means that something is amiss, conceptually or perceptually.
As I understand the "Philosophy of Spiritual Activity."
Rudolf Steiner's entire work is based on the premise or idea
that there is such a thing as objective reality, both sense perceptible
and perceptible by senses which the individual must develop.
And that with healthy senses, two or more people can come to
an agreement in defining the reality of an object or an idea
because it contains that reality in the concept inherent in it.
So, if you and I are looking at a chair, we might "argue"
or discuss whether it's a Chippendale or Georgian piece of work,
but if one of us says it's a table, something's amiss.
To state categorically that John (interpret
him as you will) was not at the foot of the cross and that Jesus
did not say these words
John 19:25
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's
sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John 19:26
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing
by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy
son!
This is the way John describes
himself at the Last Supper:
John 19:27
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that
hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
John 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom
Jesus loved.
John 13:24
Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who
it should be of whom he spake.
John 13:25
He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Now, if you want to say that in both cases
He is referring to Mary Magdalene, I will repeat what I said
earlier that Mary Magdalene is certainly intimately bound with
Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is part of both pictures.
But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he wasn't there
cannot be correct exoterically or esoterically. Perhaps you can't
find Lazarus/ John because you see Mary Magdalene so strongly
and haven't worked out how they are connected. Also, I don't
think that you will find Lazarus as Lazarus anymore, because
he became John.
John 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
John 11:6
When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days
still in the same place where he was.
John 11:7
Then after that saith he to [his] disciples, Let us go into Judaea
again.
John 11:8
[His] disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought
to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any
man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light
of this world.
John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is
no light in him.
John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our
friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of
sleep.
John 11:12
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had
spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:15
And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent
ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
John 11:16
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples,
Let us also go, that we may die with him.
John 11:17
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave
four days already.
John 11:18
Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
John 11:19
And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them
concerning their brother.
John 11:20
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went
and met him: b ut Mary sat [still] in the house.
John 11:21
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my
brother had
not died.
John 11:22
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God
will give [it] thee.
John 11:23
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the
resurrection at the last day.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he
that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest
thou this?
John 11:27
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ,
the Son of God, which should come into the world.
John 11:28
And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her
sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for
thee.
John 11:29
As soon as she heard [that], she arose quickly, and came unto
him.
John 11:30
Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place
where Martha met him.
John 11:31
The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted
her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out,
followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
John 11:32
Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell
down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here,
my brother had not died.
John 11:33
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping
which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
John 11:34
And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come
and see.
John 11:35
Jesus wept.
John 11:36
Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
John 11:37
And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes
of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have
died?
John 11:38
Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave.
It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
John 11:39
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him
that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh:
for he hath been [dead] four days.
John 11:40
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest
believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
John 11:41
Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead
was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I
thank thee that thou hast heard me.
John 11:42
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people
which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast
sent me.
John 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus,
come forth.
John 11:44
And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes:
and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto
them, Loose him, and let him go.
John 11:45
Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things
which Jesus did, believed on him.
John 11:46
But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them
what things Jesus had done.
John 11:47
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council,
and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
John 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and
the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
John 11:49
And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that
same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
John 11:50
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should
die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that
year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
John 11:52
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather
together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
John 11:53
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put
him to death.
I want to be able to take the time for each
point, but I only have time for this one this morning.
Christine
......................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:03 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Lazarus/ John Salome
Christine you wrote:
I don't mind you disagreeing with me or
my interpretations, but in this last response, you have brought
in a number of statements that certainly don't come from Steiner
or even the Bible and you don't cite references fully.
Dear Christine,
You can not say my references do not come
from the Bible because that is exactly where they come from.
And I believe I was led to this through Steiners work. I would
never have thought out of my own mind that Lazarus was not Lazarus.
And my references come from inner work from the outer work to
begin with as far as I can tell. Could have been always within
me but I am only aware of it from an outer to inner experience
on a mental level.
Christine
There are a lot of "I believes"
in it, not in the sense of "I think that is what is meant
by what I am referring to." but in terms of a personal belief
system only.
Dottie
That may be your take on what I have said
but that is not how it is within me. I don't have a strong personal
belief of this is right and this is wrong type of personality.
I have lived life to such an extent that I find there are so
many mysteries and when one door of learning looks like it has
been escavated there seems to be another door that has been found
to go through.
Christine
I have found my sources and am preparing
to present them to you all.
Dottie
I have found my sources as well and they come
from my interpretation of the words within the Bible as well
as insights gleemed of Steiners work and the work I contemplate
on. I did not expect that I would be having this conversation
regarding Magdalene and my research inner and outer has been
left to the way side a bit due to my film carreer, unfortunately.
Christine
To state categorically that John (interpret
him as you will) was not at the foot of the cross and that Jesus
did not say these words
Dottie
I never said that Jesus did not say these
words. I interpret them differently than you do.
Christine
John 19:25 Now there stood
by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary
the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John 19:26
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing
by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy
son!
Dottie
He was talking about Magdalene as the disciple
as best I can tell. Everything I have read and contemplated speaks
to this for me, including the making of ALL disciples to become
males. Magdalene had become male at this point in my opinion.
She had become a rayer of Christlike love and that is why she
could interpret the things the others could not. I think ChristJesus
was also, (and here is where I would normally use the word belief
as in a heart thing not in a mental belief system, or maybe it
is better understood if I use the word, understand' instead of
belief)calling out to the Heavens and Earth in a way that the
Christ spirit was given over to the Mother Spirit.
Christine
This is the way John describes himself
at the Last Supper:
John 19:27
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that
hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
Dottie
I interpret within the Christ spirit given
up to the Earth.
John 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom
Jesus loved.
Dottie
Do you see Magdalene at the table? I see her
at the table. And whom would lean on Jesus bosom? I believe if
you read the Nag Hammadi there is a clear understanding that
the one whom Jesus loved the most and was most comfortable and
was considered his companion was Magdalene. She had just washed
the feet in which Jesus was to follow and complete in the others.
John 13:24
Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who
it should be of whom he spake.
Dottie
Why wouldn't Peter have asked Jesus himself?
He was right there. He was asking one who was much more intimately
involved (and no I do not mean by sexual relations) than he or
the others. Obviously if he asked the one who was leaning on
Jesus bosom he could have asked Jesus as he was that close. I
believe this passage speaks to the intimate loving relationship
between the two.
Christine
Now, if you want to say that in both cases
He is referring to Mary Magdalene, I will repeat what I said
earlier that Mary Magdalene is certainly intimately bound with
Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is part of both pictures.
But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he wasn't there
cannot be correct exoterically or esoterically.
Dottie
Well, I guess I would have to know of what
John you speak? John was not laying on his breast to the best
of my inner work. Have you done the inner work on this in the
sense that you were open to all possibilities? Its easy to say
this cannot be exoterically or esoterically correct if you have
not done the work on this particular piece. And I am not talking
about 'believing' what one has read or thought was true from
reading and light interpretation according to agreeing what others
have said.
Again, I have to say this did not come to
me easy in the sense that I just made it up. I was guided to
each of these points through the spirit on a inspirational/intuitional
level. To have just come up with an idea would never have occurred
to me.
Christine
Perhaps you can't find Lazarus/ John because
you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't worked out how
they are connected.
Dottie
Well, I see Magdalene strongly because she
has showed herself to me in a sense. However above all I am looking
for the mystery not Dotties version of what the mystery is but
the real mystery and what it means. I also know that there are
many sides to this mystery. I don't understand Lazarus to be
there in a physical form as a seperated human entity than Magdalene.
I also understand that the John/Lazarus is
actually John/Magdalene. In John we are speaking of John the
Baptist who is already beheaded are we not? He interpenetrated
all of the spirits after his death I believe Dr. Steiner tells
it. (Don't know that for my self thought)
Have you never thought of why they all wanted
to kill Jesus specifically after this point? In my understanding
of this it is an initiatory right of passege not the death as
we know it. This practice was not uncommon among masters of faith.
How are we supposing the other disciples who had reached certain
levels of initiation had received them. The whole idea of holding
a man under water until he could not breathe is also a part of
this concept. It makes sense to me that they were outraged by
it being a woman who was initiated. Have you never thought of
why Martha went to see Jesus instead of Mary. It was Mary who
sat at his feet and Martha who prepared the house. In this instance
they have Mary 'sitting still' in the house. It is she who was
always out and about with Jesus. What is this signifying to you?
Christine
Also, I don't think that you will find
Lazarus as Lazarus anymore, because he became John.
Dottie
Nope can't do that. You have to look Christine
if you want to know of what I speak. If Lazarus was a true being
you would be able to interconnect with this or at least have
a 'feeling' for it. Can you say that you do other than what you
have been told? Have you ever even thought to look and see? I'll
bet no because it was not told before nor is it a natural thought
to consider contemplating. However, if you spend time to see
the mystery mystery of this story I believe you will either be
able to see of what I speak or at least have a conversation with
me about your thoughts on it. Your own thoughts.
John 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
Dottie
Why, is Magdalene not mentioned?
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any
man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light
of this world.
John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is
no light in him.
Dottie
I understand this to be a direct reference
to a Nag Hammadi quote regarding a question as to why Jesus love
Mary more than them:
Gospel of Phillip "As for Wisdom who
is called "the barren" she is hte mother of the angels.
Adn the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ
loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss her on
the mouth often. The rest of the disciples were offended by it
and expressed disapproval. They said to him, "Why do you
love her more than all of us? The savior answered and said to
them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man
and one who sees, are both together in the darkness, they are
no different from one another. When the light comes, then he
who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain
in darkness. The Lord said, Blessed is he who is before he came
into being. For he is, has been and shall be.
John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our
friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of
sleep.
Dottie
Who is stilled in the house?
John 11:16
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples,
Let us also go, that we may die with him.
Do you think that Thomas thought this was
really a regular death? I interpret from his work he knew as
well what was happening.
John 11:17
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave
four days already.
John 11:18
Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
John 11:19
And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them
concerning their brother.
John 11:20
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went
and met him: b ut Mary sat [still] in the house.
Dottie
Why would it have been so?
John 11:21
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my
brother had not died.
Dottie
Here it seems to me that Martha is shown once
again as one who does not understand spiritual things. Magdalene
did not just pull herself up out of the hat into understanding.
She had understanding from the beginning and it wasn't just a
mooshy heart understanding. It was a Sophia understanding of
things in my understanding.
Well, here the message is truncated and I
am off to my coffee. I hope Christina you will not speak down
to me and we will have a conversation even if we come to a disagreement.
I will work on stating a thing that seems like I am calling it
the all and all truth versus something I have come to.
In my little bible that is now in shreds I
will share with you something I believe I was led to see differently
one day than I had ever seen before. Although I always had questions
I never found anyone who had the same ones as I. When I found
Dr. Steiner I knew that I was not the only one and that he must
have questioned in his spirit the many things I did regarding
the bible, because he had many answers to my questions.
Here is the quote that kept calling out to
me after a while: NOW a certain MAN was ill, NAMED Lazarus. MARY
....
Well, I am reading one of those new fangled
Bibles for this reference as mine is at home and it does not
have the exact words as I had read three years ago. So, I will
bring this quote later on.
All My Best,
Dottie
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