Occult Lodges and Islam

 

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:55 am
Subject: occult lodges and islam

I've made a clumsy shot at writing a little bit about Islam and the occult lodges of the West: http://www.uncletaz.com/seclodg.html

My knowledge of Islam itself is very limited; I am trying to follow the public debates. We're talking about a billion Muslims, and a religion I'm beginning to consider with an apprehension not dissimilar to what I associate with scientology, although the systems don't have much in common theologically or philosophically (except, perhaps, a common denominator in the Jesuit order, also found in Nazism - the key concepts being blind obedience and unconditional surrender). But what is very interesting is that the warriors, or terrorists, who may be sitting at the restaurant table next to you in any European city and you wouldn't have a clue, explain that the difference between "us" and "them" is that "we" love life, but "they" love death, and their highest goal is to die for Allah and thus get into his Paradise. So we have Christians, Agnostics, Buddhists, Atheists etc., i.e. non-Muslims, on the one side, who love life, and the true believers of Islam on the other, who love death and plan to die in battle against the infidels: The world for Islam.

When I wrote this about six months ago, Al Qaida had just announced Norway as a target along with the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia, with attacks soon-to-come. What is interesting is that Norway was the only non-English-speaking nation thus targeted, probably because of its close ties to the United States. According to Rudolf Steiner, the connection between Norway and the Western hemisphere was established as early as the third or fourth century AD - anyway, long before Leiv Eriksson's famous arrival in the year 1000.

Anyway, the article related to Islam is very brief. The other article, which is about the Western lodges, is something I wrote in 1996 or '97, based upon "The Challenge of the Times", lecture III: "The Mechanistic, Eugenic, and Hygienic Aspects of the Future" (December 1, 1918, GA 186). When translating these articles, that were first written in Norwegian, into English, I blended them into one article at the URL above.

The link between this lecture and current events is apparent from a quote that I'll give you below. In the lecture at hand, Steiner describes how the secret lodges of the English-speaking polulations of the West strive to manipulate the occult evolution of humanity by stealing the latent capacities of the Eastern peoples and at the same time by making sure that such occult capacities among Eastern peoples are thwarted. There is little doubt, if we take Steiner's words about initiates and secret lodges in earnest, that such lodges and their initiates are involved in the present explosive drama between Islam and the West, with Israel in the middle. And I have considered the idea that Eastern lodges may be invloved, thus launching an assault against the dominant position of the Western powers. But on the other hand, this doesn't make sense, because antipathy and hatred against the West among the Eastern peoples acts as a hindrance for their evolution, and the Eastern lodges would logically be striving for the opposite: the hindrance of Western occult progress to the benefit of the East. For this reason, it is most probably the Western lodges that are the architects of Islamic hatred and extremism. I believe this is sensed subconsciously by the Eastern peoples, which is why they blame Israel and the West even for the WTC attack, although Eastern Muslims were sitting in the very cockpits! They sense that the West is to blame for it all, but the West doesn't know about their very own secret lodges.

And now for the real fire, from RS himself:

For example, in the case of the people of the Central countries and the Eastern lands it is an important hindrance to the evolution of these capacities, especially their evolution in a knowing way, when strong antipathies against the people of the Western countries are active within them. Then these things cannot be viewed objectively. This is a hindrance in the evolution of these capacities. But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for example, are fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction. If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not have this support. For this reason, what is now happening is tremendously helpful on the one side and a hindrance on the other in the development of those capacities that we must assert to be still latent at the present time in the case of most individuals who bear within themselves the will toward evolution in the future and are destined to influence profoundly the social structure of humanity.

Although this was said more than eighty years ago, it is not outdated if we take into consideration that we're talking about a kind of occult conspiracy whose aims and purposes reach 1500 to 2000 years into the future.

I have received some very healthy and informative criticism with regard to the article in question. The Steiner-quotes do get longer and longer, and eventually the author (myself) essentially disappear. It may easily be felt that when these words by RS are quoted almost a hundred years later, they cannot stand for themselves. If Steiner is talking about something real, it must in some way be corroboratable.

So there's a question of where we can find literature that corroborates Steiner's claims about such occult lodges of the West.

So here are two books:

Quigley, Carroll. The Anglo-American Establishment. New York: Books in Focus, 1981. 354 pages. Carroll Quigley (1910-1977) taught history at Georgetown's School of Foreign Service since 1941. This book was written in 1949 and covers the Rhodes-Milner Round Table Groups, a secret Oxford-related cabal that had tremendous influence in British foreign policy from the time that Cecil Rhodes began funding it at the turn of the century. In 1919 the Council on Foreign Relations became the American branch of the Round Table. Quigley is better known for "Tragedy and Hope" (1966), which reaffirms his earlier suspicions (he says he had access to the Round Table's secret archives), but lacks the rich detail of the earlier work. Quigley basically agreed with the goals of these high-minded internationalists, but disliked their inherited wealth and power, their methods, and particularly their secrecy. Quigley became a darling of the anti-internationalist Right in the U.S., from Cleon Skousen (The Naked Capitalist, 1970) through Pat Robertson (The New World Order, 1991). Then to top it off, Bill Clinton mentioned Quigley as his mentor in his nomination acceptance speech on July 16, 1992. Clinton studied under Quigley at Georgetown in the middle 1960s, and then became a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. Now he's a member of CFR, Trilateral Commission, and Bilderberg, and many of his appointees are from the same Rhodes-CFR-Trilateral circles. We don't know what this means, if anything. ISBN 0-916728-50-1 (from http://www.namebase.org/sources/TA.html)

Here is a synopsis of the book:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/quigley.html

Then there are the books by Sutton:
http://skull-and-bones-books.com/americas_secret_establishment/about_the_book.html

(The link to Membership of Yale's Skull and Bones Society does not work, the correct link is http://www.angelfire.com/az2/TruthPage/boneslist.html).

Sutton is a weird guy. He hates Hegel and the rest of German idealistic philosophy, for example. He comes close to being an anarchist ("The state is a fiction sanctified by Hegel and his followers to CONTROL the individual" http://www.freedomdomain.com/secretsocieties/suttoninterview.html). He once wrote a book for the Hoover Institute. Not exactly a neutral historian! But he published a lot of interesting documents and asked a lot of interesting and tabu questions (like why the US financed the Soviet Union .. and Hitler).

The subject is difficult, because there is almost no real historical scholarship except for a few weird outsiders. In that sense they have remained secret! We have to piece it together ourselves.

It is not being claimed that the ilk of Cecil Rhodes and his cohorts may have been initiates. But who inspires such circles? These are the circles that truly wield the power. Behind them stand spiritual forces (and other circles) that work directly into these circles.

Some of this stuff appears reminiscient of the background for the movie "Skulls", but both part 1 and part 2 miss the main point.

George Bush Sr. was a member of such a group in his youth, and so were many other former presidents, who had similar affiliations. They get to them when their young and malleable. That's why it starts there. Remember the "new world order"? This is not something invented by Bush.

Incidentally, someone just sent me a link to a webpage that may deserve a closer look:

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: occult lodges and islam

Dear Tarjei,

I believe what we are facing in Iraq is a bringing/melting together of the Christic principles for the future of Cosmic/Human Evolution. I believe it is the spiritual worlds push for religious peoples of the world to look past Jesus and Mohammed, to the Godhead of whence we came whither we go.

Islamists are being pummelled with relevant questions regarding their man made laws according to what they percieve as the 'real' message of the Prophet. (especially because they believe that theirs does stray from the original interpretation and Christianity's many interpretations do and therefore it's man inspired not God inspired) These conversations were not happening on the level that it is now. People may have been converting or what have you but the question of 'what do these words mean' did not occur to the Islamist community as a whole.

Christians are being forced to look on a people who are not afraid to die. We have to question, why is that? They know why we don't want to die but we really don't have an answer for the question of why they aren't afraid. And I am not just talking about terrorists here, we're talking about a whole population. They have a sweet tooth for God in a way that we Westerners do not.

We, the so called Christic community, I believe, are actually the ones teaching them the culture of destruction. Almost as if the craving for dying as you state is brought down upon their heads by the people who are fighting to live. Funny way we serve each other isn't it?

In my opinion it is Islam that truly validates Jesus' message of Love through, in and of, Sophia. I believe this is what the message of Mohammed really proclaims for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. I think we were finding ourselves completely stuck in Patriarchy at this point, and a turning one in that, which is to me what Jesus proclaimed would happen: paps that can not be sucked and wombs that could not bear would claim themselves as the All and the sole intercessors.( the idea of treating the Bishops word as if it was Gods Himself comments from early church leaders)Can you imagine, as if God Himself:(

It seems to me that mostly people look at the message of the Prophet as a literal one. It is not. And if there were truly any Christians who wish to pierce the veil to bridge the gap of understanding, they would look to the Qoran (sp). Just as Christianity has most of its messages veiled so does Islam.

Do you know the names of Mohammed's wife or those of his two daughters. The wifes name corresponds with the same name given to Magdalene the Magificent:) and of course early Egyptian, and Buddist female spiritual leaders/beings: Holy One,. The names of the two daughters who also facilitated his ascent to the seven Heavens are Faith, and unfortunately I can not remember the other at this moment. However my point is that it was these three women who nurtured his journey and it was through them he was able to ascend. It was his daughter Fatima who opened the door to the Angel Gabriel. And it was in a similar manner for Jesus although different circumstances.

Just as in Christianity the women have been downplayed, so has it been so for Islam. But a re-emergence is happening. And I believe it is through these two groups of people that the world will propel itself to a higher spiritual understanding. And then we shall partake of Manna / Sophia (my personal understanding)

In conversations with my Muslim co-worker we seem to be finding an underlining feminine aspect to Islam that neither of us suspected. We forget to go further to the spiritual aspect of what these two men were pointing to: Godhead/Unity/Allah/One and who is the one who is ever present: ChristSophia. Reminds me of a thought I had: Sophia of the past, Christ of the Future: One and the same, Alpha y Omega...

My friend Makram asked me to speak before a group of his friends. We kind of talk the same kind of heart language with a will to know/invite God. We both stand in a bit of awe of how we will be percieved within all of our human limitations/sins and so forth before Allah. Yet we both tremble with a want and fear to move forward. Standing at attention while trembling, knowing that we have faltered many times and may many times more is excruciating. He fears that even with my little words and soft way of saying them will be met with arrows but we are going to try and have a discussion group at our local coffee shop.

Islam is beautiful and will be empowered even further I believe through this interaction with the West. I believe Christians will be humbled. Almost as if there is a pact for the spirit to win the mind versus the mind winning the spirit.

My thoughts on Islam,

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

At 05:03 06.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

Dear Tarjei,

I believe what we are facing in Iraq is a bringing/melting together of the Christic principles for the future of Cosmic/Human Evolution.

I thought that would be the case of the Slavic peoples, the Russians.

I believe it is the spiritual worlds push for religious peoples of the world to look past Jesus and Mohammed, to the Godhead of whence we came whither we go.

The way I see it, St. Michael, or Christ-Michael (the archai leading humanity since he replaced Gabriel in 1879) is pushing for religious peoples to abandon Old Age religions altogether. Such religions belong to a bygone era, which means that they are being taken over by ahrimanic forces. Religion based primarily or exclusively upon revelations of old and upon old scriptures about such, pursue the principle of unconditional surrender to an external authority, which is antithetical to the principle of self-dependence and the autonomy of the individual found in the PoF. RS said somewhere that the PoF is Christ's message to humanity today: The message of individual freedom.

<snip>

In my opinion it is Islam that truly validates Jesus' message of Love through, in and of, Sophia. I believe this is what the message of Mohammed really proclaims for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Frankly, I must disagree with this rather strongly. Muslims are threatened with execution or assassination for the "crime" of converting to another religion (like Christianity or Buddhism, or atheism for that matter). Mohammed was a highway robber and a very violent man with plenty of blood on his hands. According to RS, his revelation was genuine, but remember it came from Gabriel, and following a violent religion from the age of Gabriel with such tenacity and mass conformity in our day and age is not healthy. None of this reminds me of Jesus' message of Love, and especially not of what the spiritual world wishes to communicate to humanity today.

<snip>

It seems to me that mostly people look at the message of the Prophet as a literal one. It is not. And if there were truly any Christians who wish to pierce the veil to bridge the gap of understanding, they would look to the Qoran (sp). Just as Christianity has most of its messages veiled so does Islam.

The Sufi tradition perhaps. Are you familiar with it?

<snip>

Islam is beautiful and will be empowered even further I believe through this interaction with the West. I believe Christians will be humbled. Almost as if there is a pact for the spirit to win the mind versus the mind winning the spirit.

It would be nice if you are right about it. Frankly, I hope so, but I'm not convinced. I find it difficult to discern any Islamic movement that is not spellbound by the ethos and outlook of the Old Testament on the one hand, and blind obedience on the other. A very destructive combination. I have never heard a believing Muslim speaking on behalf of his/her religion utter a single self-dependent, autonomous idea about spiritual matters. It's always what the Koran says and what it doesn't say. Whatever you think _must_ be supported by some verse from that book. Look how destructive this kind of "scriptural" fundamentalism has become in the West. All the unspeakable miscief from the CIA and the Pentagon is being fuelled by the fears and vindictiveness that lives and thrives in the Religious Right, the Christian Coalition and so on. If it were up to me, I would send all the Christian fundies and the nutty Muslims out to an island where they could slug it out among themselves. They deserve each other. They're of the same ilk.

Here's an appropriate RS lecture: "Specters of the Old Testament in the Nationalism of the Present" - Dornach December 7, 1918 (Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit, GA 186).

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: golden3000997
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Hello Everyone,

I tried to send a (somewhat lengthy) introduction when I signed up for this group, but it disappeared when I hit the send button. At some point, I will try again. In the meantime, I would like to jump into this discussion about Islam. I hear over and over again so many platitudes about Islam being a beautiful religion. Well, after 911 I decided to see for myself and I downloaded most of the Koran and started to read it. I haven't read it through and I can't say 100% that it is what I think it is, but my impression so far is that it is a mish-mash of old testament stories combined with the kind of hell and brimstone stuff that would make a Southern Baptist pale in comparison. There is no forgiveness, no flexibility. Everything is totally black and white, us and them, heaven and hell. No possiblility of interpretation or redemption.

And even if that were not enough, one must have a critical eye toward any religion in its practice as well as its theory. There is nothing of love or understanding or forgiveness in any of its practices, either. There is only power and oppression, and I mean particularly to its own people, especially women.

Of course, the same can certainly be said about Christianity in practice throughout the ages. I am embarrassed to consider myself any kind of Christian, even though I am, because it puts me on such a wicked team. No one was right in the Crusades. Everyone was out for power. And all power ploys involve gaining the support of the masses through emotional indoctrination.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the lady who called Sophia of the past and the Christ of the Future. It is God the Father who is of the eternal past, the ground of being from which all eminates. Christ is of the now. He lives in every breath and every heartbeat. The Sophia is the Holy Spirit, the "female" of the Trinity - she is the force of transformation, an impulse which can only come from the future. There can be no change without an archetype of that change coming from the future.

I am as afraid of the "Christians" as I am of the "Moslems" and the "Jews". I am afraid of any people who identify themselves with a religious belief system that comes with laws and a singular path to God. When Christ said "I AM the Way and the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through Me." He was referring to the "I AM" of which he was at the time a physical embodiment. After His Death and Resurrection, the "I AM" was fully incarnated into the individual human being through the transformative power of Mary at the first Pentecost. It was through Her incarnation of the Holy Spirit that the true "I AM" came into the people in the upper room (Men & Women) and from there began to spread to all of humanity. This spreading was not through the proselytizing, preaching and converting that the disciples did, but rather, as a homeopathic remedy, from their mere presence in the human community.

Just as Christ's blood flowed from the cross into the Earth body, acting as a homeopathic remedy for the fatal illness the Earth was infected with (see the Fifth Gospel), the presence of human beings carrying the flame of the Holy Spirit was enough to heal the body, soul and spirit of all who they touched. These people then went out and healed all who they had contact with.

The process which then began to manifest itself as a "church" after the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem was an early Arhimanic imitation of this healing process. Come to us and we will absolve your sins and fit you for heaven became a slogan for the power elite. Mohammed just adapted it to fit the sons of Ishmael. Both of these power structures are in place and thriving and both seek to keep individual human beings from experiencing the reality of the Etheric Christ who manifests in every moment, in every heartbeat.

This "war" is not about Christianity and Islam or Judaism and Islam or Christianity and Judaism or any other combination. They are all the same in their manifestation as power structures. And the true powers of this earth reside in none of them. The true powers of the earth just use them as emotional tools to gather masses of humanity and enslave them to their purpose. The conflict itself is of that purpose. To believe anyone right or wrong in what you see and hear over the media is a fool's game. There are sources of the truth still, although for how long, we have to wonder.

To hear Anthroposophists back General Boykin (?) is just as bad as saying that the Crusades were "holy wars". Of course they were not holy. Nothing associated with fear is holy. Spiritually necessary? I don't think so. Although an initiate may look back on any event (even the incarnation of Hitler) and see some positive long range spiritual energies set in motion as sort of a back lash effect, one has to take a moment and say "But did it REALLY have to be that way?" "Could mankind have done it differently and achieved the same or even a better effect?"

What would this country be like today if we had met the native populations in the same spirit that they, for the most part, met us? What if European man had come only searching for freedom and new experiences of life, rather than gold and slaves (Columbus' expressed intentions and no other!) I refuse to believe that Columbus was an initiate, and if he really was, then I do not want to be associated with any initiate!

What WOULD this country today be like if we hadn't committed unimaginable terrorism on millions of unsuspecting human beings, if the very ground beneath our feet was not still running with psychic blood? What kind of "New World" would we have found?? Utopia? Maybe not, but something far better than what we live with now.

Rudolf Steiner was a revolutionary. He was a political revolutionary who put together the most radical approach to social order that exists yet on this planet. And he placed it on the table in front of Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson at the Treaty of Versailles. And he stated afterward that the fact that it was not adopted as the right solution to the world's conflicts of 1918/1919 was proof that mankind was not spiritually, mentally and even physically ready for the Threefold Social Order. Then he brought forward Waldorf Education as a revolutionary act, a subversive act - it has the express intention of making at least a homeopathic element of society ready for the Threefold Social Order. To say otherwise is a lie. Many Waldorf schools, teachers and promoters are liars and I will say that to their faces. The time for politely hiding the truth from the parents and even teachers who come to them and to deny that what they are doing may be very dangerous in the future is a real crime.

Does that mean that Waldorf schools shouldn't exist? Of course not - they must exist as long as the powers of this earth decide to allow it (which may not be much longer). But the work should be done in the clear light of day. Everyone should understand the real WAR that is raging around us as we sit in our comfortable houses with food on our tables. By the time we go to stand in line for our chips and bar codes that will allow us to keep paying our mortgage and buying our groceries, we should be prepared to recognize it as just the sense-perceptible result of the supersensible battle going on right now.

YOU may not believe that you are personally affected yet. But people all around you are being rounded up and killed right now in the name of the "holy" the "good" the "American way of life." YOU will be next. You will succumb or die, one way or another. You can succumb to the truth and die physically, or can succumb to the powers of this earth and die spiritually. You have the choice to make. It is the ONLY choice that you will have to make in the days to come.

I apologize for the ranting, but this talk of "little words in "soft voices" so that we can all see how lovely each other's religions are makes me sick. Dottie, please don't take this personally - YOU don't make me sick - I know that you are well intentioned and desiring above all else to work for love and make a difference and this is completely valid on a one to one, interpersonal basis. But it won't do in the larger arena. "Love" will heal us but it won't shield us. We must have Truth also. "Love" didn't keep Christ off the cross - it put Him there!

Understand this. We must see "face to face" and not "as children" as Paul said (sorry for the truncation). Humanity is no longer in its infancy, when it was expected to follow its leaders unquestioning as a young child does its parents, right or wrong. It is no longer in its childhood or teens. We have come

far along the way toward being able to discover ourselves as individuals. I believe that we have reached 21 and we must understand that from here on out we will be expected to act out of our Egos and to bear the full weight of responsibility for each and every one of our thoughts, words and deeds. We can no more take refuge in ignorance or common habit. We can't say "Well, he did it first." We will be punished for breaking the spiritual laws just as surely as we will be arrested for killing someone while driving drunk. But "God" won't punish us - "Allah" won't punish us - "Yaweh" won't punish us - we will punish ourselves. We will just find the instant karma come boomeranging back on us and know that we were the ones who threw the stick in the first place.

Wake up sleepers, awake! The time is at hand and we cannot rest in dreams. Follow the trail of truth on the internet while it is still there to see. I will post links to important sites. We can not stop Ahriman's incarnation - it has already happened. But we can look him in the eye just before we die and say "I KNOW who you are - you cannot fool me! At least one human being knows who you really are." It's not much, but it is on this that the world hangs in the balance.

With love and hope,
Christine

To Walk on Water

I want to learn, in time, to walk on water.
My faith, constantly being put to the test
Fails me most often, tossed on the waves
Of our reasonable and unholy age.

It is not true that we are never given
More than our souls can grasp
Or rise above. We often sink beneath
The thunderous waves of unforeseen misfortunes.

The broken masts wash ashore each day
And wreckage is a common sight along
These beaches; yet in the silence of grey
Morning fog, I stalwartly lift my sail again.

I cannot swim well, and fear the creatures
Of the deep, unknown and hideous companions
Who are with me always, even unto the end of time,
And for whom I am responsible.

White mountains on a farther shore are calling me.
The day is clear but windy, cold and rough.
I'll try again to reach the distant courses
Where hope and faith fail not in winter's measures.

For thought I sink and break upon the waters-
Denied the saving angel's last minute solace;
Life has not yet overturned for me the truth
That someday we shall learn to walk on water.

Christine Natale 2000 all rights reserved

New World Center

How deep the grave to hold
Our world which has grown old
With countless lives untold

Earth, cloven to the core
Reveals the precious ore
Those gone forevermore

So fill the grave with tears
Our hopes, our dreams, our fears
The memories of lost years

Let living waters rise
And fill the void inside
Renewing hope and pride

And from the water's deep
Arising from death's sleep
All those for whom we weep

Together we will see
What we are meant to be
When all the world is free

A new world shining bright
Alive with freedom's might
True love and wisdom's light

Christine Natale 2000 all rights reserved

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From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:44 pm
Subject: Re: occult lodges and islam


Hi Christine,

I am just beginning to read the Koran and Sufi works and books on Muhammeds life. The first thing that struck me is how it was not sharing a thing it was telling me a thing. And it appears to me that the mysteries, at least of the version I have been reading, have been been depleted to such an extent I find my self reading a book six and seven year old readers can read. It reminds me of how I feel about the 'new Bibles' appearing on the market today. And again, what is most disturbing is that the mystery is disappearing from the written word. In a sense we are making God in mans image, imo.

I want to share a poem from a book I am reading called Women of Sufism.

I am a fountain, You are my water.
I flow from You to You.

I am an eye, You are my light,
I look from You to You.

You are neither my right nor my left,.
You are my foot and my arm as well.

I am a traveler, You are my road.
I go from You to You.

Zeynep Hatun

The mystic/spirit followers of the Koran and of the Torah as well as our Christian bible all seem to have a thing in common. How can they not, this goes back at least 6000 years.

In regards to Sophia being the Future She is also the past in my understanding. I can trace her to Magdalene, Shekinah, to Bet Kol, and Quan Yin. She is found from the earliest times. I am not sure what you mean that Her archtype can not be found in the past. Why would that be if it were true?

Christine
And even if that were not enough, one must have a critical eye toward any religion in its practice as well as its theory. There is nothing of love or understanding or forgiveness in any of its practices, either. There is only power and oppression, and I mean particularly to its own people, especially women.

Dottie

I am wondering what you read that states these kinds of things in such a factual way? Or is this your personal experience with this group of people? I must say I am having the exact opposite experience personal as well in my reading selection.

My personal experience is that I have never found a people who love God more and I can feel it from their heart like from no other peoples as a whole. My friend Makram is shocked about the things we are discovering by questioning 'what' the words mean. Most of these things have to do with the Feminine Aspect because that is mostly where my search for answers took me. I could find certain things pertaining to Sophia in the Bible, Torah but I had not even hoped that they would also be in the Koran. But there they are with the same names applied to Muhammeds wife and daughters.

Christine
I disagree wholeheartedly with the lady who called Sophia of the past and the Christ of the Future. It is God the Father who is of the eternal past, the ground of being from which all eminates. Christ is of the now. He lives in every breath and every heartbeat. The Sophia is the Holy Spirit, the "female" of the Trinity - she is the force of transformation, an impulse which can only come from the future. There can be no change without an archetype of that change coming from the future.

Dottie

Why do you think this? What leads you to this understanding? (of all three things I am thinking) How do you know that Sophia is the Holy Spirit? I concurr but 'how' did you find Her?

My other question would be what is the Father? I have been in a search for the Mother and when I found her the Father walked right off the page. So, now I am in a search for the Father and what that really means to me. I can go to the place of 'of course the Father is here' and so forth but that does not mean that I, Dottie, found Him.

Christine
After His Death and Resurrection, the "I AM" was fully incarnated into the individual human being through the transformative power of Mary at the first Pentecost. It was through Her incarnation of the Holy Spirit that the true "I AM" came into the people in the upper room (Men & Women) and from there began to spread to all of humanity.

Dottie

Christine, how do you know this? And I am wondering what Mary you are speaking of and what books you may have read that speak of this?

Christine
Mohammed just adapted it to fit the sons of Ishmael.

Dottie

How do you know this?

Christine
This "war" is not about Christianity and Islam or Judaism and Islam or Christianity and Judaism or any other combination. They are all the same in their manifestation as power structures. And the true powers of this earth reside in none of them. The true powers of the earth just use them as emotional tools to gather masses of humanity and enslave them to their purpose.

Dottie

I disagree. I can see how it looks like this but it is through these religions along with Steiners work that I have been able to make sense of a thing. See, I came with a different makeup from most on this list. I am a peasant in a sense. I get it totally from the heart. I have to learn to get it to the mind. Because I needed both to experience Christ in the etheric. So, although they have been corrupted I believe it is still a way Christ can be found. There's just a lot more red tape to go through:)

Christine
To hear Anthroposophists back General Boykin (?) is just as bad as saying that the Crusades were "holy wars". Of course they were not holy. Nothing associated with fear is holy. Spiritually necessary? I don't think so. Although an initiate may look back on any event (even the incarnation of Hitler) and see some positive long range spiritual energies set in motion as sort of a back lash effect, one has to take a moment and say "But did it REALLY have to be that way?" "Could mankind have done it differently and achieved the same or even a better effect?"

Dottie

The same could be said about the Christ incarnation and crucifiction as well. Did it have to happen? Was there another way? Christ says to Peter, 'get back Satan', after Peter wishes to take away his future betrayal. I am at times conflicted on this issue of whether it had to have happened. Yet, it is said it did. Don't know it for my self yet.

Christine
What would this country be like today if we had met the native populations in the same spirit that they, for the most part, met us? What if European man had come only searching for freedom and new experiences of life, rather than gold and slaves (Columbus' expressed intentions and no other!) I refuse to believe that Columbus was an initiate, and if he really was, then I do not want to be associated with any initiate!

Dottie

I guess what I find, even today with Mr. Bush, is that there is a rhyme and reason and a place our spirits takes us that we would not willingly agree to go. I can see the downsides of what Bush is doing and I am slowly beginning to see the upsides. Don't like it much however we are human and there is a place we are all heading to unawares. It seems with every great tragedy there is a great outpouring of Love and goodwill. Why is that I have to ask. I recently read, oh maybe it was from Tarjei, that God/Lord gave Ahriman and Lucifer powers to further the human/cosmic cause. Don't know that for my self though but I understand it.

Christine
To say otherwise is a lie. Many Waldorf schools, teachers and promoters are liars and I will say that to their faces. The time for politely hiding the truth from the parents and even teachers who come to them and to deny that what they are doing may be very dangerous in the future is a real crime.

Dottie

What did you feel they were or are lying about? What is your experience with Waldorf?

Christine
I apologize for the ranting, but this talk of "little words in "soft voices" so that we can all see how lovely each other's religions are makes me sick. Dottie, please don't take this personally -

Dear Christine,

I was a wee bit worried you might take my email as an afront when actually I am looking to learn. And I hope to till the day I die. My eyesight is already going:))) (I am sorry I get excited to experience what happens when one begins to age) and 41 is not nearly as exciting as 40:) I just want to get to fifty:)

My voice is really not soft, what I meant to convey, which I see you want to kick the door down, and that is fine and good, is being 'sincere' in my questioning and my answering. I have found that when I am sincere with all my heart, bridges are built. I find you to be sincere as well in your feelings. So, I want to build the bridge. I have not given up.

I am not looking to find how lovely other peoples religions are I am looking to find the lovelyness of everyones spirit. For me the mind is what controls most people and they are unaware of it so when I speak to their spirit I find they speak back to me from the spirit. Not right away but I choose to continue to not speak to the lower part of themselves nor allow my lower self to speak to them. The seat I work from is the heart. And I believe in that more than I believe in the mind or anything I can physically see.

Christine
YOU don't make me sick - I know that you are well intentioned and desiring above all else to work for love and make a difference and this is completely valid on a one to one, interpersonal basis. But it won't do in the larger arena.

Dottie

I find it is the ONLY thing that works from the larger arena. There is nothing else but this: Love. imo.

Christine
"Love" will heal us but it won't shield us. We must have Truth also. "Love" didn't keep Christ off the cross - it put Him there!

Dottie

So, you think it could have ended another way? And in one part of me that believes this was the only way I find that Love sacrificed for us. I just remembered the third daughters name; Aminah: Truth.

Christine
Understand this. We must see "face to face" and not "as children" as Paul said (sorry for the truncation).

Dottie

Sharon, I have to say I disagree. It is from the child like way of loving and trusting that I experience Christ. You and I are face to face and we are fine(at least I hope we are)and digging it. To me I have or at least am trying to get rid of the things I have learned up until throughout my adult hood. I have learned not to trust people, I have learned how to be afraid, I have learned that I must follow what others say, I have learned I am a female and therefore the lessor kind, I have learned that I am not able to defend my self. All of these things I had to unlearn. And now I am like a child who is not afraid to be face to face.

Christine
We can not stop Ahriman's incarnation - it has already happened. But we can look him in the eye just before we die and say "I KNOW who you are - you cannot fool me! At least one human being knows who you really are." It's not much, but it is on this that the world hangs in the balance.

Dottie

I have issues with this Ahriman understanding of things I think. I find Ahriman to come from the outside. It reminds me of my new found thoughts on Evil. I don't hold Lucifer as evil nor did I really think evil existed. However lately I find my self contemplating that evil comes from the outside in a way that I experience Ahriman. I don't think evil comes from within the spirit but from without.

Your words or rather thoughts fit right in with the book I am reading called Thus Spake Zarathustra by, oh jeez I am gonna forget this mans name....Nietzche!

Thanks,
Dottie

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From: golden3000997
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


PS - Uncle Taz in response to this from you:

It would be nice if you are right about it. Frankly, I hope so, but I'm not convinced. I find it difficult to discern any Islamic movement that is not spellbound by the ethos and outlook of the Old Testament on the one hand, and blind obedience on the other. A very destructive combination. I have never heard a believing Muslim speaking on behalf of his/her religion utter a single self-dependent, autonomous idea about spiritual matters. It's always what the Koran says and what it doesn't say. Whatever you think _must_ be supported by some verse from that book. Look how destructive this kind of "scriptural" fundamentalism has become in the West. All the unspeakable miscief from the CIA and the Pentagon is being fuelled by the fears and vindictiveness that lives and thrives in the Religious Right, the Christian Coalition and so on. If it were up to me, I would send all the Christian fundies and the nutty Muslims out to an island where they could slug it out among themselves. They deserve each other. They're of the same ilk.

They ARE on an island, slugging it out - The ISLAND is EARTH. The unfortunate thing is that we happen to be on the island with them!!! : 0

: ) Christine

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From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 7:21 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


(snip)
Rudolf Steiner was a revolutionary. He was a political revolutionary who put together the most radical approach to social order that exists yet on this planet. And he placed it on the table in front of Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson at the Treaty of Versailles.

Just in case you're not speaking metaphorically, that never happened.

Then he brought forward Waldorf Education as a revolutionary act, a subversive act - it has the express intention of making at least a homeopathic element of society ready for the Threefold Social Order. To say otherwise is a lie. Many Waldorf schools, teachers and promoters are liars and I will say that to their faces. The time for politely hiding the truth from the parents and even teachers who come to them and to deny that what they are doing may be very dangerous in the future is a real crime.

I taught at a Waldorf school, and still teach a course at the Teachers Training Seminar in Buenos Aires. Maybe I'm not one of your liars, maybe I am. I could judge that if you would tell me what the hell you're talking about. You sound like one of those creeps at Plans.

Does that mean that Waldorf schools shouldn't exist? Of course not - they must exist as long as the powers of this earth decide to allow it (which may not be much longer). But the work should be done in the clear light of day. Everyone should understand the real WAR that is raging around us as we sit in our comfortable houses with food on our tables. By the time we go to stand in line for our chips and bar codes that will allow us to keep paying our mortgage and buying our groceries, we should be prepared to recognize it as just the sense-perceptible result of the supersensible battle going on right now.

YOU may not believe that you are personally affected yet. But people all around you are being rounded up and killed right now in the name of the "holy" the "good" the "American way of life." YOU will be next. You will succumb or die, one way or another. You can succumb to the truth and die physically, or can succumb to the powers of this earth and die spiritually. You have the choice to make. It is the ONLY choice that you will have to make in the days to come.

My God, fire and brimstone.

I apologize for the ranting, but ...(snip)

Why apologize, when you're not sorry?

(snip)
Wake up sleepers, awake! The time is at hand and we cannot rest in dreams. Follow the trail of truth on the internet while it is still there to see. I will post links to important sites. We can not stop Ahriman's incarnation - it has already happened. But we can look him in the eye just before we die and say "I KNOW who you are - you cannot fool me! At least one human being knows who you really are." It's not much, but it is on this that the world hangs in the balance.

Who?

Frank

[continued in another thread]

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 8:36 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 01:33 07.11.2003, Christine Natale wrote:

I hear over and over again so many platitudes about Islam being a beautiful religion. Well, after 911 I decided to see for myself and downloaded most of the Koran and started to read it. I haven't read it through and I can't say 100% that it is what I think it is, but my impression so far is that it is a mish-mash of old testament stories combined with the kind of hell and brimstone stuff that would make a Southern Baptist pale in comparison. There is no forgiveness, no flexibility. Everything is totally black and white, us and them, heaven and hell. No possiblility of interpretation or redemption.

I end up with a feeling of ambivalence when I'm trying to decipher Steiner's take on the Arabs. On the one hand, he says in a lecture somewhere that we Westerners usually have no idea of the special relationship an Arab has to the Christ. On the other hand, he also talks about the Arabic-Islamic world as the one and only corner of the earth where the culture has not been touched by the Christ Impulse, where they've managed to dodge the Golgotha Mystery altogether. I still haven't figured it out.

And even if that were not enough, one must have a critical eye toward any religion in its practice as well as its theory. There is nothing of love or understanding or forgiveness in any of its practices, either. There is only power and oppression, and I mean particularly to its own people, especially women.

On the other hand, the distinction needs to be made between a religion like that and its individual followers. When spiritual, social, and cultural impulses and practices that may have been right for an earler age or epoch, is preserved and continued beyond its rightful time, such streams become hijacked by ahrimanic and even asuric beings and end up serving the hindering gods. For this reason, all Old Age religions based upon faith in old scriptures, supporting a mode of cognition that should have ended completely around 1950, are becoming increasingly evil, and we're only seeing the faint beginnings of this.

But remember the Good Samaritan, who today would translate into the Good Muslim. Dottie seems to be talking about the spirituality of beautiful souls who happen to be Muslims.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 5:34 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


Dear Group:

The following was being distributed throughout other Anthroposophic e-groups. The material may be disturbing and quite controversial due to the recent developments in the last couple of years. It is compilation of various points that Steiner had given to the CC priests in September of 1924. The translation/edition is not exactly what I have in my edition at some points. I looked through my copy and found that the following is actually from two lectures and that these are points from Steiner's lectures that the individual had selected.

The lecture cycle is titled, "The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest." (18 lectures). The two cited lectures are: 11 & 12 September, 1924; Dornach, Switzerland.

rick distasi

From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two realms: the realm of NATURE - which is the realm of the Father (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) - and the realm of the SPIRIT. The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the world I have just been speaking about. They know - and can ONLY know - the Father. They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet." From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest polarity to Christianity. Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a Father God alone.

A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in this. The human being cannot become filled through and through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of the Father (alone). Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to conceive the Father God.

In the end, the human being only becomes human by making Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes. Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises from purely material causes.

And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected / mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon." This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in such a way that - if a human being were to succumb to the lures of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human being would - by his own free choice - surrender all inward connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with the sub-human spiritual realms.

The apocalyptist saw this. - He felt and saw the mighty (future) counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity. It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of will and action. And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the looming Mohammedan historical impulse was the sun demon at work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual sun-intelligence. If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."

Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to impress the seal of materialism upon western culture. The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a counter-principle to Christianity - such as Arabism and its deterministic conceptual constructs - as direct outflow from the counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat. And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this were the case but - by allotting validity only to the Father principle - to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament such as transubstantiation.

(The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence of the number 666.)

During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but actively at work within the external process of outward events; he was not seen in clear outward manifestation. Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666: 1998 A.D. At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the waves of history. Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily. Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself through his appearance in many human beings as the one by whom many are "possessed." Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to believe that they are really human beings. These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to push into the abyss anything that is spiritual. Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their emotions.

The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary over against the spiritual. Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what is to come....

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 7:17 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Dear Richard and Friends,

I find my self perplexed when 'feeling' common ground has been take on issues as important as the one state below by Dr. Steiner.

My position is that we have overcome and that definitely includes the Arabs and Muslim following peoples. I can not have anyone, until the end of time, tell me what a people will or will not do or succumb to. My fight and I believe it is MichaelSophia's fight is to inspire the kernal of Christ that exists in all of us.

I find people tend to say 'well that is the way it is told and that is the way it is going to be' human laziness. The spirit cries out to see beyond what we as humans can comprehend and it begs for warriors willing to find love and expose it for the good. Nurture it in righteousness for All. Allah is both masculine and feminine principles. It is seen even in the name.

I find Sophia in the beginnings of this story of Muhammed. She is there whether anyone else can see her or not. There is no way for her not to be there. They have been lied to just as the Christic people have been regarding Sophia. But that is okay because it must have been the way this story unfolds because it has already been told.

I think we will find if Dr. Steiner is right regarding the Slavs that it will be through their close affiliation with the Arab world that a true course will succeed. The hearts of these two people match entirely in my thoughts. Sophia reigns without being seen. She is felt, though.

I as well consider that the outer minds of people percieve Christianity, Judiasm as well as Muslim, as Father religions. Its pretty obvious when one truly opens to ChristSophia they are not. People who follow a spiritual path may not see it this way and that must include Muslims.

I wish Catherine were here, she is well versed in the feeling of the people even if we may come to different conclusions.

Thanks Richard for digging up the post. That is pretty interesting. Nothing like a little fire to rekindle the path.

My Thoughts,

Dottie

[repeated message snipped]

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 9:38 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Thanks a million, Rick! It's amazing: On my very bookshelf in front of me, I have this lecture cycle - "The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest." - in a new edition (Rudolf Steiner Press 1998) that I purchased some time last year, but after reading the first five lectures, I became too busy with other things to continue, and then I forgot all about it. Until now. Gee, you just opened my eyes here. You mention lectures 11 and 12, but here is the synopsis for lecture 7:

"Lecture 7, Dornach, 11. September 1924
The year 333. The apocalypt's prophetic vision of a possible departure from the Christ Principle and return to the Father Principle. Mohammedan teachings. 666 - the number of the Beast. Transubstantiation and karma."

(Reference: Vorträge und Kurse über christlich-religiöses Wiurken, V. Apokalypse und Priesterwirken, GA 346)

The last lecture in this cycle (no. 18) was held (in Dornach) 22. september 1924, i.e immediately before he became too ill to lecture any more! We're talking about Steiner's final lectures here.

If I can squeeze in the time, I'll post some of this stuff on my website as a follow-up to my previously cited article about Western lodges and Islam. Again, thanks!

Maybe the expression is inappropriate under the circumstances, but this is dynamite.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 10:10 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Tarjei,

Maybe we have different editions. It might be better to simply list the dates of the two lectures which would be September 11 & 12, 1924.

This post caused quite a stir around other e-groups.

Also, you're welcome!

rick distasi

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 10:51 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 19:10 08.11.2003, Rick wrote:

Maybe we have different editions. It might be better to simply list the dates of the two lectures which would be September 11 & 12, 1924.

I was thinking along the lines of quoting extensively with a few comments here and there, like I did with the text from "The Challenge of the Times" in the other article.

This post caused quite a stir around other e-groups.

So be it. That's what public lists based upon free speech is all about, even if it entails a flame war once in a while. These things need to be addressed and discussed openly and without prejudice. The lecture cycle in question here has been kept strictly private until recent years. Now that it has been published openly, it should also be quoted and discussed freely.

From the publisher's foreword:

Since 1924, this text has been in private circulation among the priests of the Christian Community. For many years the Rudolf Steiner Nachlassvervaltung, the literary estate of Rudolf Steiner - a fully independent organization which holds the literary copyright to his work - has not ventured to publish its copy of the notes, respecting Steiner's original intention that they were intended only for the circle of priests. In 1995, however, the decision was taken - without the support of the Christian Community - to publish a version of the texts. This publication appeared through the estate's publishing arm, Rudolf Steiner' Verlag, as volume 346 in Rudolf Steiner's collected works in the original German.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:06 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Tarjei,

I'd be interested in your article when you post it to our group as well.

rick d.

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:54 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 11:06 09.11.2003, Rick wrote:

I'd be interested in your article when you post it to our group as well.

It may take a while. I'm going to read the entire aforementioned lecture cycle "The Book of Revelation and the work of the priest" first. After that, there will be a lot of transcription to do - so much, in fact, that I'll also have to request copyright permission in this case, because these translations are quite new.

In the meantime, it would be nice if someone on the list happens to be in possession of one of the Karma lectures from March 1924 where RS speaks about Woodrow Wilson's earlier incarnation as a Muslim fanatic. If so, please post the relevant passage(s) to the list here.

It would be interesting to find the link between the anti-spiritual, destructive Arabism described by Steiner and how this stream has influenced religious militant fanaticism in the West. And then again, how do the secret lodges of the West relate to all this?

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Hi Uncle Taz,

I've got the lecture - will type the passage for you in a couple of minutes. Here are more good links - and don't forget David Icke!

http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html

http://www.sonic.net/~kerry/bohemian/bibliography.html

Bibliography

A list of several books and magazine articles, and some links pertaining to Bohemian Grove.
Text copyright © 2002 Kerry Richardson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Bohemian Grove and Other Retreats by G. William Domhoff, Harper & Row, New York, 1974. Subtitled "A Study in Ruling-Class Cohesiveness," the 1974 hardbound edition of this book has a 59 page overview of the Bohemian Grove that is only slightly dated and includes a 130 page "Appendix of Heavies," a table analyzing the overlapping social club and policy-planning group memberships of hundreds of prominent men in the fields of business, academia, and the media. Domhoff, a professor of sociology and psychology, also presents the hypothesis that there is an upper social class in the United States made up of owners and managers of large corporations, and that this group's interests often conflict with those of working people. Domhoff argues that this upper social class - comprising one percent of the total population at most and controlling the majority of the nation's privately held corporate wealth - directs the large corporations and foundations, and dominates the federal government. Domhoff views the Bohemian Club and its retreat at the Bohemian Grove as evidence that supports his hypothesis, and he thinks such gatherings facilitate group cohesiveness among the upper social class. The Greatest Men's Party on Earth by John van der Zee, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., New York, 1974. Writer John van der Zee waited tables at the Grove during the summer of 1972, the Bohemian Club's 100th year of existence. In his 1974 book subtitled "Inside the Bohemian Grove," he combines his first-hand observations of camp life with extensive historical research and information gathered from interviews of club members to present an overview of the club and its encampment. Chapters include a discussion of the founding of the club by newsmen and artistic types and the subsequent evolution of the group to a more socially and politically prominent organization financed by those of greater wealth, with visual and performing artists and musicians accepted as associate members. Van der Zee writes about Herbert Hoover's role as an honored participant in the annual encampments and describes and interprets a lakeside talk, a variety show with famous performers, and the Grove's annual play that is staged with considerable effort and expense at a large outdoor theater within the Grove. Chapter nine, titled "The Bomb" recounts networking activities by Ernest Lawrence at the Grove that resulted in financial support for his nuclear physics research, and it tells of a secret meeting at the Grove during the second world war where scientists made key decisions about how to develop the atomic bomb. The Grove's summer encampments are still much as van der Zee describes, although there are now some African-American members, and, as a result of court decisions, there are now female workers.

Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry edited by Frédérique Delacoste and Priscilla Alexander, Cleis Press, San Francisco, 1987. This book is still in print in its second edition. Among its contents are two first person accounts of prostitution related to the Bohemian Grove gatherings. Although not an official club activity, some of the rowdier campers have been known to "jump the river." In Sonoma County where the Grove is located, it is common knowledge that this type of activity occurs during the Grove encampments. In the early 1970's and the early 1980's there were two criminal actions directed against operators of a bar and a motel in the summer resort community of Guerneville upstream and across the river from the Grove. Both prosecutions foundered. Quoted in the West Sonoma County Paper in 1983, Margo St. James noted that the top level guys don't go to the local tavern, "They work through madams from the City." The "low jinks" theatrical production at the 1991 encampment titled "The Fun House" made fun of the topic, the plot being that two not-too-bright takeover artists discover their first corporate raid brings them a brothel.

"Inside Bohemian Grove" by Philip Weiss, Spy magazine, November 1989. A fifteen page article mentioning some sixty Bohemian clubbers by name, the author prior to infiltrating the 1989 Bohemian Grove encampment anticipated writing a satirical piece but found that truth was more pertinent than fiction. The article features a map of the Grove and numerous small photos made inside the encampment. 1989 was the year Ronald Reagan returned to the Grove encampment after his two terms as U.S. president. Weiss was the first to report the presence at the Grove of France's then Prime Minister Michel Rocard and includes a summary with quotes from Rocard's lakeside talk. The article contains many first-hand observations of life at the Grove and includes a sidebar compendium of jokes told by Grove campers.

"Power Playground" by John van der Zee, Business Month magazine, July/August 1988. Van der Zee, author of The Greatest Men's Party on Earth, touches on the business ambiance at the Grove. While the overt conducting of business is discouraged at the Grove - "weaving spiders come not here" is a club motto - introductions and contacts are made, issues can be discussed in privacy at the camps, and the lakeside talks can be one of the country's most influential forums. While there are categories of associate membership for artists and performers, van der Zee notes that dues for regular members in 1988 could be as high as $110 a month with an initiation fee of over $8,000, and a prospective member could be on a waiting list for eighteen years. Van der Zee considers the Cave Man camp, formerly the Bohemian Grove dwelling of Herbert Hoover and Richard Nixon, to have the most honored status among the Grove's residence groupings.

"Mondo loro" by Pino Buongiorno, Panorama magazine, 12 Agosto, 1990 (August 12, 1990). The Italian newsmagazine's four page illustrated article about Bohemian Grove (written in Italian) contains phrases such as "Superclub, che mania" (Superclub, what a craze) and "comandante dello Strategic air command" (commander of the Strategic Air Command), and "una delle maggiori fabbriche di armi del mondo" (one of the biggest arms manufacturers in the world). The article title may mean "their world." The article includes some of the photos that are on this website.

"Pouvoir: le club le plus fermé du monde" by Jean Sébastien Stehli, Le Point magazine, 27 Août, 1994 (August 27, 1994). Written in French. (Power: the world's most exclusive club.) Le Point is a major French newsmagazine.

"Power at Play: The Boho Boys Club" by W. Hampton Sides, Regardie's magazine, January 1991. Sides penetrated the Bohemian Grove in the course of researching a book about American subcultures. (His book Stomping Grounds, in addition to a chapter about Bohemian Grove, includes an account of a Rainbow gathering.) The long article in the Washington D.C. based Regardie's magazine includes a sidebar identifying nineteen Bohemian clubbers connected to the national capital area.

"The Male Manager's Last Refuge" by Walter McQuade, Fortune magazine, August 5, 1985. The Bohemian Grove is featured most prominently in this article about all-male country retreats. McQuade also mentions the horse-oriented Rancheros Visitadores in California and the Colorado based Roundup Riders of the Rockies, as well as the aerospace industry linked Conquistadores del Cielo which meets in Wyoming, and the Moles, a group of executives who build tunnels and other heavy construction projects who have a summer place near New York City. The Fortune article has two large photos supplied by the Bohemian Club, one showing a "low-jinks" theatrical production and the other showing pyrotechnics at the Grove's "Cremation of Care" opening pageant.

"Inside Bohemian Grove: The Story People Magazine Won't Let You Read," Extra! magazine November/December 1991. Another reporter infiltrates the Grove, but this time he is spotted by one of his bosses, a Time Warner executive who was attending the encampment. The story planned for People magazine was killed. Extra! is published by FAIR, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, a New York based media watch group. This article has sidebars critical of Time Warner, one quoting an unnamed former Time magazine reporter saying his 1987 report about cocaine trafficking in Oliver North's contra supply network was killed by Time. Another story killing is mentioned: a Time reporter was undercover in the Bohemian Grove in 1982, but that report also didn't see print.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Santa Rosa Press Democrat - The Press Democrat is the daily paper closest geographically to the Bohemian Grove and it has a website. Recent articles can be called up with a search function. The Sonoma County Free Press - The Free Press is an online activist "zine" that contains commentary and reporting by Mary Moore in the Bohemian Grove Action Network section. Moore has organized protest demonstrations at the entrance to the Grove. (Speaking in Sebastopol a few years ago, Michael Parenti acknowledged Moore as having led the exposure of the Bohemian Grove.)

A Relative Advantage: Sociology of the San Francisco Bohemian Club - A Doctoral Dissertation by Peter M. Phillips, Ph.D., Director of Project Censored and Associate Professor, Department of Sociology, School of Social Sciences at California's Sonoma State University.

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 12:36 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Karmic Relationships
Esoteric Studies
Volume V
Rudolf Steiner

Lecture IV. Prague, 5th April, 1924
First Edition 1966
(Excerpt)

In Dornach recently I was able to call attention to another connection of karma, one which caused me repeatedly during the War, and especially at the end of the War, to warn people against allowing themselves to be blinded by a certain outstanding figure of modern times. In the Helsingfors lectures of 1913 I had already spoken of the very limited abilities of the person in question. This was because the connection between Muawiyah, a follower of Mohammed in the 7th century, and Woodrow Wilson, was clear to me. All the fatalism which characterized the personality of Muawiyah came out in the otherwise inexplicable fatalism of Woodrow Wilson - in his case, fatalism of will. And if anyone wants to find corroboration, to discover the origin of the well-known Fourteen Points, he has only to turn to the Koran. Such are the connections. These things must be kept absolutely free from sympathy or antipathy; it is not a question of criticism but only of the purest objectivity. But this very objectivity leads form one point in history at which a soul has appeared, to another such point. When humanity outsteps in some degree the still surviving heritage of materialism, people will be willing to listen to such things and observe for themselves. And then they will feel quite differently about their place in modern civilization because they will be able to see it not in a dead but in a living setting. That is the important point. The whole process of historical development will be imbued with life. And if man is to ge beyond the blind alley in which he is now standing in his civilization, he needs the living spirit and not the dead spirit of abstract concepts and ideas.

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From: J. Gardner
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:55 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

Dear Tarjei and Dottie,

One thing I think you may have overlooked, Tarjei, is the fact that the "average" muslim is not so different than the average Christian. They're certainly not all fundies. I really don't see a great deal of difference between them, except in the fact that the fundamentalist Muslims seem to have been allowed to follow their twisted dreams to a greater extent (I hope) than their Christian counterparts. A poor example, (but one that comes to mind), is David Koresh. Do you know of him? What might have become of his movement if it had been allowed to go on for another twenty years?

Maybe western countries do a better job of keeping tabs on the worst of the lot than do some of the middle Eastern countries. I don't know. (Not that I think that we did a good job with David Koresh, which is why he wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.) But having lived in the Muslim country of Malaysia for about 1-1/2 years, I can tell you that they have no more tolerance for terrorism or extremism than do we.

Jerry

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:38 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 05:55 10.11.2003, Jerry wrote:

One thing I think you may have overlooked, Tarjei, is the fact that the "average" muslim is not so different than the average Christian. They're certainly not all fundies. I really don't see a great deal of difference between them, except in the fact that the fundamentalist Muslims seem to have been allowed to follow their twisted dreams to a greater extent (I hope) than their Christian counterparts. A poor example, (but one that comes to mind), is David Koresh. Do you know of him?

Waco, Texas?

What might have become of his movement if it had been allowed to go on for another twenty years?

I haven't had the chance yet to study the Revelation cycle in question here, but as I understand from RS, the so-called Arabic stream may be the direct influence upon such extreme cults in the West.

But while (or if) we're on the subject of Waco, I wonder why in the world the FBI actually murdered the sect members in cold blood like that. It seems to me that law enforcement represents a dangerous cult in its own right.

Maybe western countries do a better job of keeping tabs on the worst of the lot than do some of the middle Eastern countries.

I don't know what you mean by "keeping tabs on" - especially when you're talking about open, permissive democracies. By countries, do you mean governments?

I don't know. (Not that I think that we did a good job with David Koresh, which is why he wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.) But having lived in the Muslim country of Malaysia for about 1-1/2 years, I can tell you that they have no more tolerance for terrorism or extremism than do we.

I pointed out earler that it's important to distinguish between individuals and the religious streams they're connected to. Such streams are especially dangerous for souls with specific weaknesses. And among a billion Muslims, the potential is alarming.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: occult lodges and islam

Hi Dearest Jerry and Tarjei,

Jerry you wrote:

One thing I think you may have overlooked, Tarjei, is the fact that the "average" muslim is not so different than the average Christian. They're certainly not all fundies. I really don't see a great deal of difference between them, except in the fact that the fundamentalist Muslims seem to have been allowed to follow their twisted dreams to a greater extent (I hope) than their Christian counterparts.

Dottie

I have been thinking that the main difference is the monetary and manipulation sophistication of the United States. They are both doing the same thing albeit in different manners. The US has had these neo cons in the defence department forever or at least since the early sixties to the degree we find them today. We are creating unknown havoc across the lands. And we are considered a Christian nation. It just looks prettier when we do it. We kill 11,000 innocent, low number, of Iraqis and who knows how many Afghanis and its okay. We are now deploying a strategy (in last two days) that Isreal is using on the Palenstinians: bombing indiscrimately. A child dies, so what? Collateral damage.

Tarjei

I haven't had the chance yet to study the Revelation cycle in question here, but as I understand from RS, the so-called Arabic stream may be the direct influence upon such extreme cults in the West.

Dottie

In what possible manner? It seems to me to be the exact opposite. The Islamic peoples have always had a great respect for Mary and her son. They are the only group between the triad, that respects and includes both Judiasm and Christainity in the same breath. The Jews disregard Christ and the Christian say the Jews killed God. Muhammed says respect the people of the books. (Bible)

I am contemplating that this people would have slid even further had Muhammed not come on the scene when he had. It seems this was a most uneducated group in regards to social norms and that even the tiniest things were made unto laws. Almost like teaching a social norm.

Tarjei

I pointed out earler that it's important to distinguish between individuals and the religious streams they're connected to. Such streams are especially dangerous for souls with specific weaknesses. And among a billion Muslims, the potential is alarming?

Dottie

What do you consider their specific weakness?

I have been reading a book called Three Early Sufi Texts * A Treatise on the Heart * Stations of the Righteous & The Stumblings of Those Aspiring. It was written about 3 hundred years after Muhammeds transition.

What is interesting about this book is the idea that Muslim is the first stage of a four stage process that involves the heart. I will leave a few passages for contemplation and to see if anyone reads it the way I do or may be able to help me see it another way.

"In this system the heart is described as consisting of four parts or stations. These are the breast, the heart proper, the inner heart, and the intellect. They are arranged in concentric spheres, the breast being the outermost sphere followed on the inside by the heart, the inner heart and finally the intellect. Within the intellect are yet other stations which, however, are too subtle to be described by words.

Each of these stations of the heart has its own characteristics and functions. Thus the breast is the abode or seat of the light of Islam. It is also the repository for that kind of knowledge required for the practice of Islam, such as knowledge of the Qur'an, the Prophetic traditions and the religious law."

It goes on to discuss each of these heart stations. But here is the part that really caught my eye and I am tryng to understand better:

"Each of these four stations of the heart is associated with one of the four spiritual stages of the Sufi path. Thus the breast and the light of Islam within it correspond to the first stage, that of the Muslim. The heart proper and light of faith correspond to the believer, the inner heart and the light of gnosis to the gnostic, and the intellect and the light of unification to the highest stage, that of unitarian."

So, what I am reading into this is the idea that calling oneself a 'Muslim' is stating in fact that one is on the first step of Islam. Kind of like when Dr. Steiner speaks of Jesus denoting a certain stage of enlightment of Jesus' disciples regarding being called a certain name according to that level. (Attaining the name of the nation means having accomplished that particular level)

These calls of Muhammed being a common thief and a camel stealer and so forth may or may not have been true at one point. However there seems much to debunct this train of thought. Not to mention the fact that he 'indeed' does have mysteries within his understanding that others have picked up on through contemplating his life and his readings.

And I believe a huge point we are missing out on is who taught them the level of violence that they are now loosening on the world. We did. Britain did. Doesn't make it right. However, reading the first message of Osama bin Laden after the 9/11 tragedy I found a certain understanding of his train of thought. I actually do not think he had any part of this terrible day other than cheering on those who were trying to take on the political and monetary structure of the beast of whom America is becoming. I believe we have more in the blind Mullah sitting in jail than Osama had with us.

We can look over in Africa and see the hideous things occuring there that have nothing to do with Islam. We can look at the cruscades, Bosnia, Serbia Germany. Hundreds of thousands killed within years. Hideous. Islam definitely does not have the market on terrorism.

And I believe those calling the shots today are actually on the backside pulling peoples together. The religious right on both sides will continue to force seperations but the god loving peoples are finding a way to make inroads. This is there time to be heard.

Muhammed brought women into the fold. It was women who helped confirm and initiate his journey from the way I see it. Did he do or say things that were not complimentary towards women. It seems he did. And it seems to be in the tradition of the times as we can well see with Peter and Paul. However I do sense a similar understanding of Sophia as that of Jesus within his spirit.

My thoughts,

Dottie

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


Hi Tarjei,

I have been reading a wonderful book on Muhammed by Karen Armstrong. In there she mentions something about the history of the Arab people along with France and Britain during a colonial time for this region.

One thing caught my attention was the idea that the Muslims were the fastest growing religion and that the Christic minded people were extremely fearful of them. Many of the fears came from Christians who believed mistakenly, according to Ms. Armstrong, that Muhammed was born or died on 666.

So, he is or was the anti christ in their minds. And she claims it never really changed. Even unto the Satanic Versus written by Rushdie which she claims is a slanderous piece on Muhammed. She mentions how 24 of the 25 groups in that region stated that the verdict to kill Rushdie was not in the vein of Muhammed. Yet this did not get any coverage. What got coverage was the foolish ayatollahs spouting stupidity. Of course.

In the mind of the Muslims they have always, since taking on a monotheist mentality, believed in the same God as Christians and Jews. Yet, why is it that the Christians as far as I can tell have always believed it to be a different God. Even unto the General who you featured in another post.

Point being I think Islam deserves to be looked at again versus all the propagandist style remarks that float from the lips of those on a spiritual path. If we continue in this manner we will never find the peace and will only propagate war till the end of time. It seems we are going on our grandparents opinions of such a people. I can see how this 'fight' with them is along the lines of a Light Bearer and His Brother pushing and pulling till we humans finally get that we are all One. And we are this One and we are connected and a part of Allah.

I just saw the Matrix tonight. Kind of blew me away. The Christic nature of it overwhelmed me for a second and it was sweet. The powerful ideas behind this movie for a physical world was just what I needed to see put out there right now. We are indeed our double till we transform it. Our fight is not with Islam it is with ourselves. The idea we access from Gandhi ought to be extended to the Muslim world.

Dottie

p.s. So what that Dr. Steiner states certain realities about the Muslim peoples. We can use it to understand a thing better. But isn't our path to be Christ like? If so than it is our duty, is it not, to uplift ourselves so that we may uplift others. Isn't Michaels battle about transforming our selves our world and our universe?

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:07 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

At 06:30 12.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

In the mind of the Muslims they have always, since taking on a monotheist mentality, believed in the same God as Christians and Jews. Yet, why is it that the Christians as far as I can tell have always believed it to be a different God. Even unto the General who you featured in another post.

I'll respond to this with two appropriate RS quotes, giving him two little speeeches. First, here is a quote from Behind the Scenes of External Happenings (13th November, 1917)

When a man's attitude to the spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened" Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world - even if it is only in his feeling - is of a definite kind; it is simply a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos - the only Being with whom he is able to feel related - he calls his God; if he is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism, urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being, Christ - whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual human being.

Men are still unwilling to admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not - and this holds good above all at the present time - really acknowledge this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own special God.

And here is an even more fitting quote, from Love and its Meaning in the World (Zurich, 17th December, 1912):

Besides love there are two other powers in the world. How do they compare with love? The one is strength, might; the second is wisdom. In regard to strength or might we can speak of degrees: weaker, stronger, or absolute might - omnipotence. The same applies to wisdom, for there are stages on the path to omniscience. It will not do to speak in the same way of degrees of love. What is universal love, love for all beings? In the case of love we cannot speak of enhancement as we can speak of enhancement of knowledge into omniscience or of might into omnipotence, by virtue of which we attain greater perfection of our own being. Love for a few or for many beings has nothing to do with our own perfecting. Love for everything that lives cannot be compared with omnipotence; the concept of magnitude, or of enhancement, cannot rightly be applied to love. Can the attribute of omnipotence be ascribed to the Divine Being who lives and weaves through the world? Contentions born of feeling must here be silent: were God omnipotent, he would be responsible for everything that happens and there would be no human freedom. If man can be free, then certainly there can be no Divine omnipotence.

Is the Godhead omniscient? As man's highest goal is likeness to God, our striving must be in the direction of omniscience. Is omniscience, then, the supreme treasure? If it is, a vast chasm must forever yawn between man and God. At every moment man would have to be aware of this chasm if God possessed the supreme treasure of omniscience for himself and withheld it from man. The all-encompassing attribute of the Godhead is not omnipotence, neither is it omniscience, but it is love - the attribute in respect of which no enhancement is possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is born as it were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love. God is pure love, not supreme wisdom, not supreme might. God has retained love for himself but has shared wisdom and might with Lucifer and Ahriman. He has shared wisdom with Lucifer and might with Ahriman, in order that man may become free, in order that under the influence of wisdom he may make progress.

If we try to discover the source of whatever is creative we come to love; love is the ground, the foundation of everything that lives. It is by a different impulse in evolution that beings are led to become wiser and more powerful. Progress is attained through wisdom and strength.. Study of the course taken by the evolution of humanity shows us how the development of wisdom and strength is subject to change: there is progressive evolution and then the Christ Impulse which once poured into mankind through the Mystery of Golgotha. Love did not, therefore, come into the world by degrees; love streamed into mankind as a gift of the Godhead, in complete, perfect wholeness. But man can receive the Impulse into himself gradually. The Divine Impulse of love as we need it in earthly life is an impulse that came once and forever.

The god of ordinary Muslims, orthodox Jews, and Christian fundies is not a god of unalloyed love, but a god of might, power, cleverness and shrewdness.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 05:48 11.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

The Islamic peoples have always had a great respect for Mary and her son. They are the only group between the triad, that respects and includes both Judiasm and Christainity in the same breath. The Jews disregard Christ and the Christian say the Jews killed God. Muhammed says respect the people of the books. (Bible)

I have been told that to Muslims, the idea that God should have a son is blasphemous. Christianity, therefore, is an affront to the only true religion of Mohammed.

Tarjei

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From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


Hey Tarjei,

Looking in on your other post, I decided to put two on one:) It feels right to me that this certain group may be praying to their Angel. Who is their Angel by the way? This is one of the issues that have come up between my Muslim friend; stopping at Muhammed and 'his' Angel. Although of course we do not say 'his angel' that would not be understood by my friend at this time to a certain extent. However we are starting to explore this. My experience of my Muslim friends is that if one engages sincerely with them, without putting the Prophet down, contemplating these issues can be fruitful.

Speaking with my Rabbi today I put these questions to him. He just returned from France where he was spit upon and experienced quite a few looks of hatred from a few Arabs on the train he was travelling. He had all the words down as far as hatred being inbred within this culture. He also finds no culpability of the Jew regarding this relationship. None. He feels we must hate them back. That one must hate that which is hateful. I told him I felt that we would then become like that which is trying to kill us. He says its a Christian concept and bears no reality to the physical world. We must hate them back. And he is a pretty liberal Rabbi.

So, I guess after reading your previous post I am left with the idea that we are from one Godhead. How do we inspire humanity to embrace our brotherhood that looks to 'one' ultimate God? One Adama?

Can you imagine that we would all recognize we are 'one' here on Earth and that we are all returning to that which we come from? So why would we not find a way to bring ourselves to brotherhood as a people? I think heart to heart people can be inspired by the goodness and sincere questioning as to how we find our way home? It sits right in the middle of my throat. I want to call with all my heart to say, 'come lets eat together and when we are done we shall lift our voices to our God and ask for a way to end the wars of humankind. We shall ask for new eyes to see my brother. Gods eyes.

Have you not thought of what has been wrought by this war with the Muslims other than death? It is always difficult to look at it when standing in the age however it would do good to look at it now. The Christians and the Jews stand together as one. We have found common ground. Couldn't we, instead of conquering Islam, invite them to the table. What would the world be like if we did that? What if instead of sucking their oil and putting regimes in that decimate their people we ivited them to the table of humanity? What if we welcomed them?

The number of terrorists compared to the billions of people they are must be so small as to not even register on the scale. However our response, 55,000 number of dead in Iraq by a recent accounting, innocent and soldiers, shows what our intentions were from the beginning. We are the ones, if we count ourselves among the Christians, for Bush and company are representing Christians right now, who are the real terrorists killing innocent men, women and children. And for what? I feel like we keep manifesting the worst things possible in the name of Christ. And as much as they pay we will pay more. And we should know better.

Tarjei
I have been told that to Muslims, the idea that God should have a son is blasphemous. Christianity, therefore, is an affront to the only true religion of Mohammed.

Dottie

Well, many early Christian and Jews felt the same way. The Muslims hold Jesus, we're not talking Christ, to be a great Prophet of God just as Muhammed is. They hold Jesus in great esteem. He is mentioned more times in their bible, supposedly, don't know this for myself, than in ours. I am still reading it. He is a constant reminder of a great man of God.

My hope is that their are great men of God who can inspire our people to brotherhood. And it starts with us. The fundies shouldn't control the game on any side.

My thoughts,

Dottie

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:40 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


Tarjei quoted the following from RSteiner:

Can the attribute of omnipotence be ascribed to the Divine Being who lives and weaves through the world? Contentions born of feeling must here be silent: were God omnipotent, he would be responsible for everything that happens and there would be no human freedom. If man can be free, then certainly there can be no Divine omnipotence.

********************

The all-encompassing attribute of the Godhead is not omnipotence, neither is it omniscience, but it is love - the attribute in respect of which no enhancement is possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is born as it were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love.

********************


As blasphemous as this may be to the present day religions that are past their time it is the absolute truth. Thank you Rudolf Steiner (and thank you Tarjei for posting this).

rick distasi

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:00 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam

At 10:40 13.11.2003, Rick wrote:

Thank you Rudolf Steiner (and thank you Tarjei for posting this).

Oh my, it looks like I have posted the same two RS quotes twice; first Tue Nov 4 in the single post "Spiritual warfare, politics and religion" and then again Wed Nov 12 in the thread "occult lodges and islam"

Tarjei

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 02:06 13.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

Have you not thought of what has been wrought by this war with the Muslims other than death?

In a previous post entitled Spiritual warfare, politics and religion (Tue, 04 Nov), I wrote:

In spiritual warfare, we're off target if we try to overcome our fellow men. We have to overcome ourselves, because the battlefield is each human soul.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


At 05:48 11.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

I am contemplating that this people would have slid even further had Muhammed not come on the scene when he had.

This point of yours was actually corroborated by Rudolf Steiner when he said that Arabic materialism was blunted by the emergence of Islam. So RS implies that this religion was a progressive force when it was introduced in the 7th century. Apparently, the destructive forces inherent in "Arabism" and connected with 666, Sorath and so on, has hijacked this religious stream because it has outlived its alotted era long ago.

Tarjei

I pointed out earler that it's important to distinguish between individuals and the religious streams they're connected to. Such streams are especially dangerous for souls with specific weaknesses. And among a billion Muslims, the potential is alarming

Dottie
What do you consider their specific weakness?

Specific manifestations of egoism. When a young man kills men, women, and children at random by blowing himself to pieces with them in the firm belief that he will be rewarded with 70 virgins in Paradise for such a deed, we're not only talking about merciless egoism, but a specific variety of it, probably exclusively found among Muslims.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam


Hi Tarjei,

In reading this book by Karen Armstrong I am getting a better 'feel' for Muhammed and what he endeavored to bring to his people.

One of the things that strikes me is that its path was similar to that of Judiasm: in order to get to one God they had to take down the 'daughters of God'. That was the missing piece for Muhammed on the way to monotheism as it was for the Jews.

Interestingly as well is that what he was working on was a change of consciousness from family blood ties to spirit ties that outgrow the familial bounds similar to Jesus' concepts in a way.

I find that Muhammed was very much inspired by the story of Mary and Jesus. There is a reference to them early on that actually insinuates to the exoteric way of reading her being a virgin. However when reading it from an esoteric level the 'veil' being lifted is clearly understood.

Well, what I am coming to is that Muhammed seems to have brought a religion that centered on surrendering (islam) ones total self to God. And the way to show that was through letting go of worldly goods and giving to the poor and taking care of them. But what strikes me is this absolute 'feel' I have about the self (nafas) getting its house in order. So, in a way although it is one religion it seems to be made up of singular people on a quest for God. Although they call themselves Muslims as one their quest is really each one by themselves. It kind of reminds me a wee bit of Self Realization Fellowship by Paramahansa Yogananda. It has that sense of righting oneself before God. Almost like he took the Christ revelation and and then became one of the men that achieved a self revelation. Almost reminds me of the snake.

At one point the book speaks of 'exciting' the hatred of the Jews. It is pretty apparant that they were considered 'trash' among the peoples in that region. And it seems they truly never recovered even unto this day their own sense of worth. Almost as if they are always in the place of having to defend their honor. And not really only their own but that of their Prophet as well. They know he is not what the Western world says and they are always fighting some uphill battle in their minds.

One last thing before I go. I find it extremely interesting that the Satanic Versus as related by Rushdie actually speak to two lines where Muhammed gave credence to the 'daughters of God'. He then tried to and actually did take the versus back and claimed that they were slaves just as the everyday people were, and that one could not look to them for guidance or help.

Well, maybe this is the last piece before I go:) They have the most remarkable references to Satan that I have ever seen. To them their was no original sin. Muhammed believed that this was all a part of Gods plan. That in the end Satan will be the last to be saved but he will be. Also he states that it is Satan who loved God the most. I think of Lucifer here.

Anyway, the more I read of this Muhammed the more I come to understand how he was able to achieve what he did in such a short time. He truly had his face on God and inspired others to do the same.

Tarjei you wrote:

This point of yours was actually corroborated by Rudolf Steiner when he said that Arabic materialism was blunted by the emergence of Islam. So RS implies that this religion was a progressive force when it was introduced in the 7th century. Apparently, the destructive forces inherent in "Arabism" and connected with 666, Sorath and so on, has hijacked this religious stream because it has outlived its alotted era long ago.

Tarjei

Specific manifestations of egoism. When a young man kills men, women, and children at random by blowing himself to pieces with them in the firm belief that he will be rewarded with 70 virgins in Paradise for such a deed, we're not only talking about merciless egoism, but a specific variety of it, probably exclusively found among Muslims.

Dottie

Yeah, this thing with the virgins bothers me a bit. I think it is ridiculing them and this is not what Muhammed had in mind physically. When I sink into the Koran I will see what that means. In the mean time I am going to speak to my friend about this.

I am not so sure it is found exclusively among Muslims but I do not know how to make the argument. What comes to mind are the 'fundies' of the world. We have people here in the states killing doctors who perform abortions in recent years. And I believe it will only get worse as the right gets more power in regards to other segments of society as well. We are about to face the 'gay rights to marriage issue' and this is a powder keg waiting to go. And they believe they are doing what God would want them to do. Its pretty gross. And I wonder what is the difference regarding the ego of having 70 virgins versus doing an evil thing for Gods grace?

Thanks,
dottie

p.s. I know I am not the best one to converse on this subject however I would like to say it has inspired me to become more knowledgable regarding a group of people who are going to light the world on fire.

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