The Virgin Birth

From: Joel Wendt
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:47 am
Subject: the virgin birth

Dear list-mates, especially Christine, Dottie and Paulina,

I found myself this morning wondering about a certain question, and not having any thoughts "that Steiner said" about it. The question is this:

What is the real meaning of the idea of the Virgin Birth?

I thought about it a little myself, and felt that it didn't have to mean that Joseph gave no seed to Mary, otherwise what would be the point of the Gospels describing his genetic line (as I write this I am not entirely sure they did, but believe there were two lines of begats, one for Mary and another for Joseph.

Or does the Virgin Birth mean that the genetic inheritance of one, or both of the Jesus children was created out of nothing by God?

Or does it mean that Mary, the Mother, was a divine incarnation, and therefore fully innocent of any karma (thus a Virgin)?

thanks for your thoughts and help
joel

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] the virgin birth

DOOR NUMBER THREE!!

Actually, this is the Dogma of the Virgin Birth according to the Catholic Church - the Immaculate Conception. It states that "Mary was Conceived Immaculate in Her Soul." That is it - in and of itself as church dogma it refers to Mary, not Jesus per se.

Legend - I forget from where. Lucifer bent over Mary's cradle, intending to frighten her. She laughed at him, because, being born without original sin, he had no power over her.

But Joel, how can you say that the two geneologies are Mary and Joseph?? Steiner is so very specific about that. They are both Joseph - two Josephs, with two Marys and two Jesus children. One Joseph from the Nathan line and one Joseph from the Solomon line. It's right there in the Bible. And Steiner says (very, very gently) that Joseph (both of them) did give his "seed" to Mary, but they were asleep, so to speak, their souls were not involved and Mary's soul (the Eva Maria) did retain her "Immaculate" condition.

By the way, Steiner did say during his lecture given at the Foundation Stone meditation, after the burning of the first Goetheanum, that he would be linking his future karma directly with the Anthroposophical Society from that point on. It's when he took on the Presidency of the Society for the first time. So I don't think we can just abandon our Anthropop-ishness just because it is difficult.

: ) Christine

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: the virgin birth

Joel wrote:
What is the real meaning of the idea of the Virgin Birth?

Hi Joel,

Ha! That is the real question of all questions in my mind? A tangled web we do indeed weave:) I am wondering how that question came up for you?

I my self this morning, or rather last night before I went to bed, had this perplexing question on my mind once again. I have some thoughts about this or rather some deep excavation regarding this question and I have a few understandings but they seem so out of line with the way Steiners students think on this. And I believe this is because he did not touch on the Feminine/Sophia Mysteries in an forward manner.

One thought I will share is that Mary gave birth, not to the Christ, rather she gave birth to the man who would carry the Christ. SHE birthed this, she pulled this down upon herself due to her own personal knowledge. She was an initiate of the highest order. And she accomplished in that particular lifetime after many preceeding ones. She birthed her OWN, I AM and in that Jesus was born. This is where my thoughts lead me and much is left out due to not being able to discuss it with others in an archeological way. She accomplished the mystical marriage. Not set in stone however still working through it.

Where do your thoughts lead you,

dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:13 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: the virgin birth

I have a small contribution to this topic that's already "out there," in a post to the newsgroup alt.religion.christian.biblestudy July 15, 2000:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C5E012DA6

Sometimes it's a real mess with these shorter links in email, so here is my part of the post in question:

A literal-physical understanding of the "Immaculate conception" of Mary would make the entire genealogy of Jesus pointless and meaningless. The Old Testament is a looooooong tale of selective breeding on the paternal side to provide Joseph with genes fit to sire a deity.

An embryo needs a male and a female cell to come into existence. That is a scientific fact. Some may choose to explain this away by talking about an all-powerful circus magician who plays dice with natural law, but common sense dictates that this is pure superstitious nonsense.

Rudolf Steiner's approach to this mystery was a different one. In the first place, if Joseph had not been the biological father of Jesus, his elaborate genealogy all the way from Adam, which is recorded in the Bible, would make no sense. Neither would the Old Testament, where the hereditary lineage of Jesus on his father's side is the central theme.

The mission of the Hebrew people, according to Steiner, was to provide the purest and the most highly developed physical vehicle to receive the Christ. And when the time drew near, when the seers and the initiates perceived that the God of the Spiritual Sun was approaching the Earth, a very special and unusual kind of conception had to be prepared for.

The reason for this is that according to the laws of heredity, we adopt not only certain physiological characteristics, but also soul spiritual ones like temper, inclinations, etc. At the moment of conception, we adopt a piece of soul-substance from each parent. Because we are in a state of passion during the hedonistic pleasure of lovemaking, inherent selfish tendencies enter the soul of the embryo as soon as sperm and egg unite. This is what 'hereditary sin' is all about, and why it has been associated with sensuality and sexuality.

In order to provide an untainted soul-substance for the Christ, it was necessary for the conception to happen in an unorthodox way. Joseph and Maria were so spiritually advanced that they were capable of an Oriental technique which provides for sexual intercourse without passion or hedonistic pleasure. On the contrary, it is experienced as a sacrifice. In this way, the purest body and soul substance was provided for the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. In this manner, the Saviour was born 'without sin.'

The picture of the Holy Spirit miraculously inseminating the Virgin Mary was a beautiful means of helping simple-minded people understand the Immaculate Conception and its supernatural significance. But unless the Christian mysteries are approached in a more mature way in the future, they will eventually become the exclusive property of irrational zealots and fanatical fundamentalists.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: holderlin66
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:49 pm
Subject: Re: the virgin birth

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume wrote:

Tarjei;

I certainly hope your wrote this, because it also was wonderfully and clearly unfolded. How important it is to grow common sense. The actual Golgotha and Resurrection Event hinges on our understanding all the laws of science and that his very science of embryo and heredity had to be rebuilt from the Christ Being. But the streams which brought the two Jesus children into the vehicle for the Christ had to follow very clear hereditary lines, that are the foundation for matter and Earth life. Very fine and clear work Tarjei

Tarjei wrote, I hope;

An embryo needs a male and a female cell to come into existence. That is a scientific fact. Some may choose to explain this away by talking about an all-powerful circus magician who plays dice with natural law, but common sense dictates that this is pure superstitious nonsense.

Rudolf Steiner's approach to this mystery was a different one. In the first place, if Joseph had not been the biological father of Jesus, his elaborate genealogy all the way from Adam, which is recorded in the Bible, would make no sense. Neither would the Old Testament, where the hereditary lineage of Jesus on his father's side is the central theme.

The mission of the Hebrew people, according to Steiner, was to provide the purest and the most highly developed physical vehicle to receive the Christ. And when the time drew near, when the seers and the initiates perceived that the God of the Spiritual Sun was approaching the Earth, a very special and unusual kind of conception had to be prepared for.

The reason for this is that according to the laws of heredity, we adopt not only certain physiological characteristics, but also soul spiritual ones like temper, inclinations, etc. At the moment of conception, we adopt a piece of soul-substance from each parent. Because we are in a state of passion during the hedonistic pleasure of lovemaking, inherent selfish tendencies enter the soul of the embryo as soon as sperm and egg unite. This is what 'hereditary sin' is all about, and why it has been associated with sensuality and sexuality.

In order to provide an untainted soul-substance for the Christ, it was necessary for the conception to happen in an unorthodox way. Joseph and Maria were so spiritually advanced that they were capable of an Oriental technique which provides for sexual intercourse without passion or hedonistic pleasure. On the contrary, it is experienced as a sacrifice. In this way, the purest body and soul substance was provided for the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. In this manner, the Saviour was born 'without sin.'

The picture of the Holy Spirit miraculously inseminating the Virgin Mary was a beautiful means of helping simple-minded people understand the Immaculate Conception and its supernatural significance. But unless the Christian mysteries are approached in a more mature way in the future, they will eventually become the exclusive property of irrational zealots and fanatical fundamentalists."

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:58 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: the virgin birth

At 01:49 01.12.2003, "holderlin66" wrote:

I certainly hope your wrote this, because it also was wonderfully and clearly unfolded.

What gives you reason to doubt that I wrote it after I said I did?

(Incidentally, it was only a summary of what RS explains in his lecture cycle about the Luke Gospel.)

Tarjei

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 5:13 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: the virgin birth

Christine mentioned that the Immaculate Conception is in reference to the conception and birth of Mary. To the best of my knowledge she is right as this is a Catholic doctrine. The Virgin birth can have reference to the birth of Jesus (and both of them) but it may actually be reference to the truth that the birth of Christ into the body of Jesus of Nazareth at the Baptism in the Jordan by John the Baptist is probably the basis for the concept of the "Virgin Birth". This truth became eventually became lost in the early development of Christianity and the whole concept of a Virgin Birth was then attached to the physical aspect of the birth of Jesus.

rick distasi

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To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
From: eyecueco
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 01:34:53 -0000
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: the virgin birth

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt wrote:

Dear list-mates, especially Christine, Dottie and Paulina,

jw:
What is the real meaning of the idea of the Virgin Birth?

pkl:

Humm, I guess that I'm having a bit of a problem with the use of the world"idea", Joel, so am hoping it ok to assume that you mean 'objective' and,or 'intent'.

The eventual coming of a world redeemer was known in all the ancient mystery wisdom schools. The birth of the two Jesus children was the fulfillment of prophecy arising from what was known by the great initiates who lead and guided the four mystery streams.

jw:
I thought about it a little myself, and felt that it didn't have to mean that Joseph gave no seed to Mary, otherwise what would be the pointof the Gospels describing his genetic line (as I write this I am not entirely sure they did, but believe there were two lines of begats, one for Mary and another for Joseph.

pkl:
In spite of some actions being called miracles, I see the manifest actions ofthe spiritual world working in accord with the laws put into place when thephysical world was created. So, I see it that there was a physical transmission of "seed" from Joseph to Mary that enabled the formation of a physical body of the Luke Jesus. However, let's remember that matters involving sexual procreation were quite different in the earlier post-Atleantean times than now, especially among the groups of souls involved with the four mystery streams. Procreation was the business of those inspired leaders guiding the group ego development of a particular tribe or people; it was, so to speak, temple business, and physical Intercourse came about between the two individuals involved in a somnambulate state. It was not a matter of romantic love or physical gratification. There were only certain times of the years that conception was permitted. A child born out of season was verboten.

And, yes, there is quite a genealogy behind both Mary and Joseph.

Joel, I think that you probably have a copy of the Trans Intelligence magazine where I wrote the article for Chris Bodame on the two Jesus children in the light of art history . In that article I gave a brief side by side summation and comparison of the Solomon and Nathan lineage. If you still have a copy around it is on page 9 of the Apr-may '99 edition.

jw:
Or does the Virgin Birth mean that the genetic inheritance of one, or both of the Jesus children was created out of nothing by God?

pkl:
Hummm, I have the same problem with the term "God" as I had with "idea". "God' is an all too inclusive a term for me, and I also have a similar difficulty with saying that the Jesus children were created out of nothing. I subscribe to what is taught in Luranic Kabbalah, and that what we think of as nothingness is actually the space created by the En Sof contracting to bring about a new universe.

The two Jesus children are of Father-Son business, but, the Father-Son stream, as with Adam Kadmon, which is a defining term for a certain conditionor state of spiritual energy, _not form_, are not the same nor in any way similar to the unknowable and undefinable EnSof. The God of the Bible is a limited God.

jw:
Or does it mean that Mary, the Mother, was a divine incarnation, and therefore fully innocent of any karma (thus a Virgin)?

pkl:
The Luke Mary was fully innocent of any karma, a sister soul to the soul who incarnated into the Luke Jesus. The Solomon Mary, like her son, the Zarathustra soul, had been around many times before. I'm very fond of the Solomon Mary. She did not have an easy go of it. I've often thought how unfortunate it is that knowledge of the two Jesus children is not more pervasive today, because the Solomon Mary would be such a wonderful model and consolation to so many challenged men, women and children today. Her story has it all - the death of a child, the death of a spouse, remarriage to a man with a child, the merging of two households where the siblings clash.

I love the Solomon Mary a lot. My favorite Mary image is not the Virgin Mary image, but, Portormo's portrait of Mary with two children (as usual it is said to be a group portrait of Jesus and St. John.) Naugh. One look in her eyes and you know that child she is leaning towards is not the young St. John; this is the Solomon Mary and she has her arm around her child and the Jesus in he lap. If there was ever a portrait of maternal precognitive loss this is it.

Sorry, but, this is all I have time for. I wrote a much better reply earlier today but did not save while typing and when over half way through mycomputer sent me a message that it needed to shut down immediately. Seems my computer was having a "kernal panic". A kernal panic? Even computers are have nervous breakdown? Lol.

Hope this brief reply helps.
I see that Tarjei sent in a helpful post.

I assume you know about Ed Smith's BURNING BUSH. His chapter on the Nativity is totally excellent. Also, Emil Bock's book, EARLY CHILDHOOD OF JESUS is wonderful and includes some interesting excerpts from ancient texts that did not make it into the Bible.

paulina

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From: Joel Wendt
Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 3:36 pm
Subject: thanks

Dear everybody that responded to my question about the Virgin Birth.

Thanks for the stuff. Some of it I read years ago, which my approach to Steiner was rooted in studying intensely the lectures. Tho' I took a slightly different direction with what he taught than all that reading, I know its richness lives in many.

warm regards,
joel

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